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Jim Gass: Testing mic levels.


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Jim Gass: Testing mic levels.


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Rosalind Norman: Okay hi.


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Jim Gass: Dr. Roz, how's it going this morning,

Rosalind Norman: Let me switch on my camera, let's see how it look, if not, then, you know. Okay, here we go.


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Jim Gass: Nice.

Rosalind Norman: I'm at my computer.


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Rosalind Norman: Okay, is that okay?


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Jim Gass: yep that'll do just fine.


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Rosalind Norman: Okay.


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Rosalind Norman: Well, hi!

Jim Gass: How you doing this morning?


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Rosalind Norman: So let me know when you're ready to start and good afternoon to you!


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Jim Gass: Good afternoon to you, too, can you hear me okay?


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Rosalind Norman: Yes, I can hear you fine.


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Rosalind Norman: Can you hear me OK.


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Jim Gass: I can.


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Rosalind Norman:Okay, good.


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Jim Gass: These are a pretty old pair of earphones here with the microphone kind of,


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Jim Gass: Where I gotta at least hold it to my mouth, but um.


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Jim Gass: So uh let me add, you as a co host real quick like we were talking about.



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Rosalind Norman: showing the, uh, video, because I do have it ready.


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Jim Gass: Right, right... more... make cohost...


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Jim Gass: Yes.


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Jim Gass: Okay, I think, if you want to share that, that should probably work.


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Rosalind Norman: Okay, so like saying you want me to go ahead and get started, are you, you know, are you ready to start recording let me know anything I can you know go ahead and start the video.


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Jim Gass: um yeah i'm recording already so i'm.


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Jim Gass: ready whenever you are.


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Rosalind Norman: Okay, well then, thank you very much, gentlemen go ahead and start the video, I think I shared with you, and one of the emails that should be about a 12 minute, approximately 12 minutes.


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Rosalind Norman: That was prepared by some students of mine who served as my interns back in 1999. It's called Community Pride, so let me go ahead and share the screen sit back and get that up, it is here, and share.



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Rosalind Norman: Let's see, we can go ahead and get started Okay, let me know if the volume is not high enough, okay?


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Jim Gass: Of course.


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Rosalind Norman:


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Rosalind Norman: "Vashon High School gives me a very warm feeling.


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Rosalind Norman: It makes me think back when I attended Vashon High School I came here as a freshman in June of 1946. The name, Vashon, itself, you know is named after two Black attorneys, George and John D. Vashon, uh


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Rosalind Norman: in itself is inspiring to me so when I think of it, it brings that level of inspiration and feelings of connection and, it's home. It was a


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Rosalind Norman: exciting time.


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Rosalind Norman: We were a close-knit community.


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Rosalind Norman: Family oriented and children. This- going to high school every fall, while I was going to school and had excellent teachers there.


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Rosalind Norman: A wonderful atmosphere, it was just a great school to attend.


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Rosalind Norman: And Vashon gave us an outlook on how to build the future. This 00:03:00building that is here is not the original Vashon and this community that it sits in is not the original community that Vashon


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Rosalind Norman: sat in and we have to know a little bit of- of the history, Vashon originally started in the Mill Creek area.


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Rosalind Norman: Which is where Harris Stowe is now. Harris Stowe is the historic Vashon high school, it was the second Black high school west of the Mississippi. At one time all of the Black students in the city of St. Louis went to Sumner But some


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Rosalind Norman: people got together and decided that we needed another high school East of Grand and they built Vashon. In this area, we need something that


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Rosalind Norman: our youngsters can relate to, something that's going to be beautiful, attractive. I know the kids that goe to Vashon now, they're going to take more than what they have because they don't really have nothing. You think the neighborhood needs it though? Yeah. They need a new high school? Yeah. Why? Because, you know what I'm saying, educate more people, they can give them jobs 00:04:00and stuff like that,


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Rosalind Norman: get they GED and stuff like that,


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Rosalind Norman: instead of dropping out. The idea of it is already this inspiration for the Community, and I think that it can be a- a lynchpin for further development in that area. I want to see...


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Rosalind Norman: things on the campus, I want to see so many things in Vashon that I remember when I was attending Vashon, I want to see Vashon reach more out to the Community, get the Community input as to what they want to see in their school. First of all, we want to welcome all of you to this historical occasion. Ready? Set- One- That's the way! That's the way! Two- We are rocking ground for a new Vashon!-Three!


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Rosalind Norman: Two years ago the Danforth Foundation Board of Trustees decided


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Rosalind Norman: the foundation should no longer make national grants.


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Rosalind Norman: Its focus should be on the problems of cities, especially St. Louis. The funds have to be kept in the community, but there


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Rosalind Norman: has to be people who are who are trained, who care, to take community wants and to invest it in


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Rosalind Norman: the next level of development. There has to be a major enterprise or entity within the Community that people believe in, like a high school. I believe that the school.


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Rosalind Norman: want parents to have answers to their questions, because they know that the school cannot be the kind of place, that it needs to be unless there is that partnership between parents and teachers, the parents can't



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Rosalind Norman: be taking the place of the teachers, neither can the teachers take the place of the parents. I think that seeing a new growth, to see more action and more activity,


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Rosalind Norman: To come into the Community is going to be a benefit not only economically to the Community, but for


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Rosalind Norman: Self-identification. What I envision for the new Vashon is it will be the flagship of the St Louis public school system,


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Rosalind Norman: it's going to be a $35 million project that will resemble a small college campus with a huge building of about 200,000 square feet to serve as the actual educational facility, it will have a stadium.


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Rosalind Norman: A basketball, baseball, a swimming pool, tennis courts and all other recreational facilities that are necessary for a state-of-the-art high school.


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Rosalind Norman: And in terms of the Jeff Vanderlou neighborhood, the $35 million impact in terms of development that it's going to have is going to totally revitalize that community


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Rosalind Norman: and make people want to live in the Community, own businesses, 00:06:00and raise a family right there in the Jeff Vanderlou


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Rosalind Norman: neighborhood. The high school could again be the centerpiece of a larger development that would address all aspects of the Community, a holistic approach, if you will, where we will be dealing with physical development.


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Rosalind Norman: rehab, new construction, the employment of the people in the Community in that process,


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Rosalind Norman: As well as dealing with social issues and trying to bring people together to solve their own issues in the Community. What we'd like to let people know is that


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Rosalind Norman: Vashon being built right now, it's going to be more than just a high school, you're looking at building the Community surrounding that.


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Rosalind Norman: they're looking at pouring millions of dollars into, ah,


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Rosalind Norman: the Community, the Jeff Vanderlou area


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Rosalind Norman: to give support.


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Rosalind Norman: Key part of this Community has been the people themselves.


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Rosalind Norman: There's strength in numbers, not in money. People say, well Macler you ain't got no money, I say money ain't nothin' but paper.


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Rosalind Norman: i'll never forget the days that I first saw Macler Shepard and I, then talking together with other people in the community wondering what we might do together to build up the community.


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Rosalind Norman: But I shall never regret that I pledged myself to work with the project and to continue to work with as many of my resources, both personal and the resources in the church to make the project work.


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Rosalind Norman: The foundation has been laid in the last 10 years that never did, I been with the spirit, the spirit today exists, look at the young people today in the neighborhood, look at the young people now with enthusiasm, working 00:07:00together with older people and everybody. This did not exist earlier.


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Rosalind Norman: And I think the future lies here, yes, in the spirit of this community and its souls. On this street, James Cool Papa Bell the baseball player lived.


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Rosalind Norman: We had a tribute to him right here to, like, we had banners on the posts.


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Rosalind Norman: And so we need our children to know about all of those things and to be proud of our neighborhood.


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Rosalind Norman: Self-respect, a sense of belonging, a sense of identity, a sense of recognition, all of those things I think will be developed


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Rosalind Norman: As a result of the construction of Vashon High School and all- and the ancillary services, supportive services that are necessary for any community to survive. Vashon has such a place in my heart that the mere mention of its name conjures up emotions in me.


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Rosalind Norman: But what does it mean to me, it was a...



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Rosalind Norman: A nurturing ground for me certainly, and


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Rosalind Norman: it gave us an opportunity in a Black environment to


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Rosalind Norman: really, uh, develop ourselves.


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Rosalind Norman: Ah, Vashon is like, the pillar of the community.


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Rosalind Norman: It's a very good larger institution.


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Rosalind Norman: And Vashon has my heart.


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Rosalind Norman: I think every student should have some memories of their high school, just like they have memories of their college for those who don't, though, Vashon's a great place to have memories of.


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Rosalind Norman: The school system is great, and this is just gonna make it even greater. This is just the start, and

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Rosalind Norman: this new campus will be like throwing a rock in a pond, with the ripples growing and growing, and this will be that


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Rosalind Norman: rock.


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Rosalind Norman: I'm very very excited about the possibility of us


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Rosalind Norman: coming together, and I hope that people in the neighborhood will be on fire with the conviction


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Rosalind Norman: that they have made something happen.



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Rosalind Norman: Education is our passport to the future, for tomorrow belongs to the people who prepare for it today.


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Jim Gass: That was really well put together.


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Rosalind Norman: Isn't it though? You realize, I lost quite a bit in that transfer from the, uh, videotape even though the transfer may have been, yeah, the videotape or vhs from that time period just to DVD, you know. I hope that didn't interfere too much with you watching it.



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Rosalind Norman: But thank you.

Jim Gass: No, the quality was pretty pretty great overall, I saw a couple issues with the subtitles but i'm sure that's you know fairly common occurrence when adding captions like that.


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Jim Gass: So that's, uh, so that was covering the, uh, development of the current location of Vashon high school, is that correct?


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Rosalind Norman: Yes, that's correct.

Jim Gass: And that's the third location, overall, since the school's original founding, is that also correct?


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Rosalind Norman: Yes, that's correct because Harris Stowe State.


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Rosalind Norman: University, now because, you know, because of the changeover and I guess the accreditation of the university, but when it first started out it was Harris Stowe State College and that,


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Rosalind Norman: where it's located now, is the original site of Vashon High School. I graduated from Vashon High school once it moved over to Bell Avenue, 00:11:00which was the sight of the Bluemeyer Housing project, which is now the site of the Renaissance, uh,


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Rosalind Norman: apartment complex and, of course, if you're talking present-day, we're looking at, where the new Vashon


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Rosalind Norman: is actually currently located on Cass, okay?


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Jim Gass: That was going to be my next question, so did Harris-Stowe make use of any buildings that were left over from the original high school that was there, or was that bulldozed and then was Harris-Stowe built from the ground up?


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Rosalind Norman: Well, according to my understanding from Helen Robinson, who was, included in the video, she said early on that that was the site, that's where they went to school, remember, she went to school back around, what? 1946?


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Rosalind Norman: So that would have been before they trans- you know transferred over to Bell where the high school, um,


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Rosalind Norman: Where, um


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Rosalind Norman: The Vashon that I graduated from was also became the location 00:12:00for Hadley Technical high school, okay on Bell so yeah, where Harris-Stowe is, the way it looks even in this, uh,


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Rosalind Norman: even in this video presentation was pretty much the way it looked according to my understanding when they first started out.


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Rosalind Norman: Now of course they've been adding, expanding, probably upgrading around that main building, but the building you saw in the video to my understanding, was the same building that they used, okay.


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Jim Gass: Yeah that clears it up, it's something we've discussed a lot in our research, is kind of a tendency in St Louis to, you know,


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Jim Gass: Either preserve a historic site or completely tear it down and build something like completely new over, like over what is left, so that's that's great that the original building is still there.


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Jim Gass: But, based on the credits there, it looked like there's significant buy-in from the city, uh, and its various departments.


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Jim Gass: Would you say that came about before or after there was a real push to 00:13:00get a new location for Vashon.


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Rosalind Norman: You know what? And I want to back up a little bit.


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Jim Gass: Sure, sure.

Rosalind Norman: If at all possible, I want to be sure we're accurate, because I know it's very important for you as a student


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Rosalind Norman: To be accurate. In the video we cover some things, I'm going on my smartphone right now just-


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Rosalind Norman: because I'm going to look


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Rosalind Norman: to be sure, I'm giving you the accurate information.

Jim Gass: I appreciate


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Jim Gass: that.

Rosalind Norman: Yeah for the Harris-Stowe State...


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Rosalind Norman: Be sure I'm gonna be sure because like Helen said, you know, there was a site and she actually stood. She was standing, right outside of Harris-Stowe when you know, when she gave her interview.


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Jim Gass: Right.


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Rosalind Norman: I have to do this, okay and according to...



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Rosalind Norman:


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Rosalind Norman: Okay, and I, and I did find- I went on Google and I went back and i'm making sure, because the Vashon that I went to on Bell was in there, they show that photograph and...


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Rosalind Norman: They show the original site for Sumner which pretty much like, like Sumner stayed like it is, and let me see...maybe I can hold it, but if you don't mind me sharing screen

Jim Gass: Nope.

Rosalind Norman: just for a moment.


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Jim Gass: Go for it.


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Rosalind Norman: See if I can go to...


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Rosalind Norman: Because I found it on Google, just some things that I, OK, can I click on that?


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Rosalind Norman: Ok, let me see if I can get to......let me see if I can


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Rosalind Norman: Take


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Rosalind Norman: Down the desktop and see if I can go there...Well there it wants to go to the desktop...


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Rosalind Norman: See what I can get rid of...



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Rosalind Norman: this. We'll get rid of that...


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Rosalind Norman: I can close this out because I will see if I can find... being...


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Rosalind Norman: See if I can go to...


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Rosalind Norman:


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Rosalind Norman: Regional...high school...sure hope this works


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Rosalind Norman: Images folder wallet.


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Rosalind Norman: Okay oh, go ahead!


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Jim Gass: All I can really see as far as your screen goes is still your- your files here from your desktop.


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Rosalind Norman: Go back and re-share...

Jim Gass: Okay.


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Rosalind Norman: here.


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Rosalind Norman:


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Rosalind Norman: Now, can you see this screen, where it says,



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Rosalind Norman: colocation?


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Jim Gass: Yes, yes I can, at Search Data Center?


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Rosalind Norman: Okay, so now let me go back to where I was, try to star again.


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Rosalind Norman: Can you see this? Can you


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Rosalind Norman: see me scrolling?


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Jim Gass: I can.


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Rosalind Norman: What's this...Norton. I need to come out of Norton and


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Rosalind Norman: Go back to Google, Google has better images I think people,is it going to let me go back to Google.


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Rosalind Norman: Okay, can you see the screen still?


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Jim Gass: I can. Yep.


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Rosalind Norman: I'm going to, on my phone I use


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Rosalind Norman: Google, and sometimes it depends on you know how we come in, since I have a security, uh special security for a


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Rosalind Norman: Secure online source, sometimes creates a challenge.


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Rosalind Norman: I hope I don't take you off the amount of time you alotted for this.


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Jim Gass: No, I made sure, uh it ran till two just to be on the safe side. That's- that's uh- we needed less than that in our previous two interviews but felt better about just having that alotted.


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Rosalind Norman: Ok here it is, confirmation at 3026 Laclede Avenue. That's exactly where Harris-Stowe State University is now. It says on September the sixth.


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Rosalind Norman: 1927, okay.


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Rosalind Norman: It was budgeted, you can see here, at like 1,180,790 at the 00:17:00time, okay.


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Rosalind Norman: So now let's see if I can get to images...


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Rosalind Norman: Okay, and this is the Vashon I went to, right here, the second one, yes, that's the way it looked on Bell, it's been torn down, okay.


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Rosalind Norman: And you're right, they tore it down and just up from there right off the corner of Grand and Bell they built the Clyde C. Miller academy. Okay, which is the school I work with now, believe it or not, with Gateway GIS.


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Rosalind Norman: and let's see if we can so you can see the stages, they were tearing it down.


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Rosalind Norman: Okay, let me see, let me go back to- here it is.


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Rosalind Norman: Um, St Louis. This would be Harris-Stowe right here and that was the site of, um


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Rosalind Norman: Vashon.

Jim Gass: Right.

Rosalind Norman: The original site. Over here would probably be the site of Sumner, okay? Just so you know how they look. Okay so basically there's been you know very little change, if that helps you? Again here's Sumner, you know pretty 00:18:00much it looks now in black and white is Sumner so.


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Jim Gass: I guess i'm


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Rosalind Norman: just saying to you if you were to look at this.


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Rosalind Norman: This is supposed to be where the new Vashon, I mean the new Vashon,the one that is located on Cass.


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Rosalind Norman: So I just wanted to be sure that I was giving you accurate information, even though you know I had it in the video tape where Helen was standing in front of school, she said, this is where we went to school, you know, open around 1927 and she was there in 1946.


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OK so, I'll stop sharing.


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Rosalind Norman: i'll try and go back. Okay! So um I just want to be sure I was


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Jim Gass: Yeah.


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Rosalind Norman: accurate answer your question about that original site. Now,


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Rosalind Norman: The other part of your question, if you could


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Please repeat for me?


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Jim Gass: Um, yeah I was asking how much-


00:28:50.010 --> 00:28:54.390

Jim Gass: How much the push from within the Community to get a new location for Vashon played a role


00:28:54.720 --> 00:29:14.220

Jim Gass: in getting the city on board, I should say, because during the credits of your film there, I saw, you know, the names of a lot of different city 00:19:00agencies, and I was wondering if the- if the project to get a new location for Vashon originated in the Community, or with the- with the city itself.


00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:32.250

Rosalind Norman: No, if you listen to a couple of the people that were part of the interview and- I probably shouldn't say no so quickly, I just want to maybe say, let me see if I can clarify. In the video you can recall a couple people who were a part of the Vashon Alumni Association and, um, um and


00:29:34.350 --> 00:29:35.010

Rosalind Norman: various


00:29:36.330 --> 00:29:38.370

Rosalind Norman: other entities, they pushed


00:29:39.390 --> 00:29:49.590

Rosalind Norman: Especially the alumni association pushed from within the Community to have built the new Vashon and if you noticed, there was a lady early on


00:29:50.640 --> 00:30:06.750

Rosalind Norman: whoo talked about you know the pride they took in knowing the history of Vashon, but they knew also the building here over on Bell, which is very important, why I was able to show you the picture of how it looked on Bell, 00:20:00it was like a factory, you know, setting.


00:30:07.830 --> 00:30:14.640

Rosalind Norman: And to you know and I can still remember how dilapidated, I mean we get all kinds of issues in that building.


00:30:15.900 --> 00:30:28.440

Rosalind Norman: Because it just went totally, how can I say this to a point where, you know, rats, you know rodents, you name it, they were there, you know, even while students were there, I mean we were constantly having problems with, um,


00:30:30.270 --> 00:30:38.310

Rosalind Norman: The water system, the pipes, you name it, you know just how- we never had any kind of air conditioner, air conditioning unit in the building, so you can only imagine, okay.


00:30:38.700 --> 00:30:47.190

Rosalind Norman: um so it was a push from within the Community first and, of course, different wants and their relationships with


00:30:47.700 --> 00:31:03.630

Rosalind Norman: Some of the various elected officials got involved with it and, and, and then eventually with the, how can I say, the success really of Jeff Vanderlou and Macler Shepard made a major difference because why? We are here in 00:21:00St. Louis,


00:31:04.710 --> 00:31:15.750

Rosalind Norman: through Macler Shepard's enterprise of establishing Jeff Vanderlou as one of the first urban renewal projects nationwide. It brought a lot of


00:31:16.050 --> 00:31:26.880

Rosalind Norman: attention to St Louis, okay, especially to that area that surrounded where the Vashon on Bell was located because that was part of the 63106


00:31:27.090 --> 00:31:33.990

Rosalind Norman: zip code, which is part of Jeff Vanderlou's area, okay. I just need you to understand, I'm trying to give you context and so having, uh,,


00:31:34.680 --> 00:31:58.260

Rosalind Norman: The success, initially, of Jeff Vanderlou, I think that gave it a strong foundation because a couple Presidents, we're talking United States Presidents visited Jeff Vanderlou, Okay, because of this success as a major urban renewal hub, nationwide, okay, if you really look at a model, and given that kind of


00:31:58.290 --> 00:31:59.250

Rosalind Norman: track record,


00:31:59.340 --> 00:32:11.490

Rosalind Norman: Then, those who were a part of the Community that understood 00:22:00our self identification which the architect knew, so it was very important, so did Norman Say, Norman Say, by the way,


00:32:12.510 --> 00:32:18.630

Rosalind Norman: was not only a civil rights activist, but he was very involved, even at University of Missouri-St. Louis,


00:32:19.290 --> 00:32:28.740

Rosalind Norman: During the days when they had their first African American Chancellor Marguerite Barnett and they formed the St. Louis Black Leadership Forum, which I was a part of.


00:32:29.070 --> 00:32:37.560

Rosalind Norman: So what i'm trying to do give you context you can see the important role of some of those key players who were also filmed as a part of this video tape and


00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:54.840

Rosalind Norman: quite a few of them are dead now. Mac is dead, Norm Say is dead, Catherine Nelson so our timing back in 1999 was very good to capture them, you know and have them included, and if you notice Mike McMillan, he was an Alderman at that time, he is now


00:32:55.080 --> 00:32:56.940

Rosalind Norman: The CEO, the President for the


00:32:57.450 --> 00:33:13.170

Rosalind Norman: Urban League of Metropolitan St Louis so I'm trying to give 00:23:00you- Those are some major players that were involved, back in 1999 when my own small company Roz Norman Associates was given the opportunity to do the Community, um,


00:33:14.790 --> 00:33:25.740

Rosalind Norman: I guess you could say, inventory, Community asset inventory for the Danforth Foundation because why? Their foundation took an interest at a time when Jeff Vanderlou


00:33:26.850 --> 00:33:37.380

Rosalind Norman: As a neighborhood, as a community, was on the decline and I think there was some political, how can I say this so you'll understand...


00:33:40.350 --> 00:33:49.350

Rosalind Norman: underpinnings that was playing a part in this because someone- and Macler had told me, because Macler's like, my role model, as well as my mentor,


00:33:49.950 --> 00:33:58.080

Rosalind Norman: you know, when I was young but I came up under people like Macler and Norman Say, and different ones within our communities, and I was really blessed in that sense.


00:33:58.320 --> 00:34:10.680

Rosalind Norman: I was always this young person very interested in in the community and our families, and you know in our young people and what have you, 00:24:00so having those kind of role models and having really, I'm talking about,


00:34:11.190 --> 00:34:20.700

Rosalind Norman: candid conversations with them about what was really happening behind the scenes, because you can have a lot of people would come into your community and i'm talking,


00:34:21.090 --> 00:34:28.320

Rosalind Norman: Even elected officials, and they can claim be interested in your community but they're not going to really support it when it comes time


00:34:28.590 --> 00:34:42.210

Rosalind Norman: For looking at how we allocate necessary funding for making housing really affordable and especially home ownership for people who come from that kind of community oftentimes are low-income, okay,


00:34:43.260 --> 00:34:51.450

Rosalind Norman: And people come Okay, so there are some realities there you know I live with versus What was really happening,


00:34:51.930 --> 00:35:08.430

Rosalind Norman: Not just politically, but also on the economic level, they would have the game for conviction to take an interest back in that time 1999 00:25:00was interesting because you can hear Bob Koff say that the Foundation has shifted their strategy from


00:35:09.030 --> 00:35:21.630

Rosalind Norman: providing net new grants on the national, you know, basis, that it was just focusing on St Louis, okay, and that was really the precursor of what was going to happen with 2004, we need to look up,


00:35:21.960 --> 00:35:31.920

Rosalind Norman: if you haven't already, what happened with the Danforth Foundation, Civic Progress and different ones, you know, what we can call the ones who really ran.


00:35:32.610 --> 00:35:38.880

Rosalind Norman: what was going on not just be- you know and politics but economically in the City of St. Louis. I


00:35:39.600 --> 00:35:57.390

Rosalind Norman: really need to, if I don't, you know, if I don't say anything else, I really want to drive home that point, so you can understand the role of Civic Progress. If you haven't heard about that group already, please check into them because a lot of what was happening even back in


00:35:58.530 --> 00:36:00.390

Rosalind Norman: 1999, what with the shift of the Danforth Foundation


00:36:00.630 --> 00:36:05.520

Rosalind Norman: to focusing on St. Louis was what, getting us ready for that 00:26:002004 plan, okay.


00:36:06.660 --> 00:36:13.380

Rosalind Norman: The 2004 plan was laying the groundwork for continue to blight a lot of the,


00:36:15.210 --> 00:36:24.750

Rosalind Norman: how can I say, healthy Okay, and, in essence, cut back on whatever support financially


00:36:25.050 --> 00:36:30.450

Rosalind Norman: That was initially given to Jeff Vanderlou after Macler Shepard and his different projects and you need to understand this,


00:36:30.660 --> 00:36:42.570

Rosalind Norman: This is very important, because now it can bring you fast forward to what's happening now with the building of the National Geospatial Intelligence Foundation, okay. Not foundation, sorry, the National Intelligence


00:36:44.190 --> 00:36:48.330

Rosalind Norman: Agency which is NGA, that's the acronym, new West headquarters,


00:36:48.510 --> 00:36:48.840

Rosalind Norman: Which is


00:36:48.870 --> 00:36:51.060

Rosalind Norman: actually going to be built there right off the corner of


00:36:51.060 --> 00:36:52.140

Rosalind Norman: Cass and Jefferson.


00:36:52.260 --> 00:36:56.310

Rosalind Norman: So you need to understand that there's context for this and I've been around long enough.


00:36:56.610 --> 00:36:57.930

Rosalind Norman: If you get a chance to look at


00:36:57.930 --> 00:37:08.640

Rosalind Norman: My written report, there was a written report I was supposed to 00:27:00have done, you know, you know for the Danforth Foundation, and you know between me and the Danforth Foundation, but I felt the need to keep the hard copy of it.


00:37:09.720 --> 00:37:17.460

Rosalind Norman: And i'm like you know, and I do have a word copy that I shared, I remember sharing with Jim Cooper when he was the Co-President of Urban League, this is


00:37:18.360 --> 00:37:37.830

Rosalind Norman: again, back in 1999, I- you know shared with Macler Shepard as well as Norman Say, I even have personal conversations with them, even when I first took on this contract to look at getting community support for the project, you know our foot to the project being the building


00:37:38.160 --> 00:37:40.920

Rosalind Norman: of a new Vashon and that was because of my contract with the Danforth Foundation.


00:37:42.120 --> 00:37:44.820

Rosalind Norman: And so i'm saying all this to say to you.


00:37:46.050 --> 00:37:56.910

Rosalind Norman: Because it was full circle for me, that means because I grew up in Jeff Vanderlou, I understood you know our culture and the people, and you know the, uh


00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:12.180

Rosalind Norman: Various kinds of stakeholders, that you know, may have been and 00:28:00were at different times interested in what was going on in Jeff Vanderlou, especially you know through the leadership of Macler Shepard, and then we we had so many other, uh


00:38:12.780 --> 00:38:24.330

Rosalind Norman: activists like Norm Say and different ones and then at that time we had Congressman William Lacy Clay, the father, okay, William L. Clay the father. Oh, I mean they were very much


00:38:25.980 --> 00:38:31.230

Rosalind Norman: invested, let's say in, Jeff Vanderlou and we began to see purposely over the years, see how...


00:38:31.860 --> 00:38:40.080

Rosalind Norman: And Macler had prepared me for this, you know, years ago, he said Rosalind watch, he said, because we're strategically- Jeff Vanderlou is strategically located,


00:38:40.290 --> 00:38:50.700

Rosalind Norman: if you think about it, we're not that far from downtown St. Louis and City Hall, just so you understand it, and then what the plans are, when you start looking at urban planning, the location of Jeff Vanderlou


00:38:51.240 --> 00:39:01.920

Rosalind Norman: It's strategic, okay, when we look at the City, and you get the development- you know the plans for development, okay. So I'm saying a lot of things and I'm probably pushing it out there, you know,



00:39:02.430 --> 00:39:10.650

Rosalind Norman: so that I can give you the context understand what you just raised. Yes, there were a lot of stakeholders that we wanted to make sure


00:39:10.980 --> 00:39:21.150

Rosalind Norman: that we included when we were looking at the development of this short video piece, okay, but my students also were given a lot of liberty and cre- creative,


00:39:21.510 --> 00:39:29.880

Rosalind Norman: You could say, autonomy to look at a lot of information and all the different interviews and select how they want to put the short piece together because why?


00:39:30.180 --> 00:39:42.030

Rosalind Norman: Part of my written report that was submitted to the Danforth Foundation mentioned the fact that my students were creating this, a short video documentary and then we wanted to make it available to...


00:39:42.750 --> 00:39:52.080

Rosalind Norman: The residents of Jeff Vanderlou, okay, and we did, okay, and not only that we, you know, we had it was covered on Channel Nine, KETC, and a whole lot of


00:39:52.110 --> 00:40:01.020

Rosalind Norman: other places, and you know so i'm saying all this to say that it was very important at the time but I'm also trying to give you a timeline so you understand.



00:40:01.860 --> 00:40:13.050

Rosalind Norman: We saw those of us who are, you know, who are familiar with how some of those stakeholders that were involved in that video, how we even, it has


00:40:14.460 --> 00:40:31.200

Rosalind Norman: grown in some ways, you know, to the kind of stakeholders you may see now this interested in what's going on in their area, especially with the building of the NGA West headquarters right there off the corner of Cass and Jefferson literally walking distance from where I grew up, okay.


00:40:32.460 --> 00:40:32.670

Rosalind Norman: So I hope that helped to you understand that


00:40:33.750 --> 00:40:36.300

Rosalind Norman: no, it came from inside the community and up,


00:40:37.350 --> 00:40:37.920

Rosalind Norman: okay, first.


00:40:38.160 --> 00:40:47.790

Jim Gass: Yes, Okay, yes, now that's very helpful, that context is helpful, especially because it does a pretty great job of tying together what we're what we're discussing in our project.


00:40:48.210 --> 00:40:57.930

Jim Gass: Which is that the shifts in the neighborhood over time, in terms of its buildings, but also in terms of the direction that it's taking as far as development goes. Now,


00:40:59.190 --> 00:41:05.730

Jim Gass: you'd mentioned the Danforth Foundation shifted its focus around the 00:31:00time that this- that your film was made, in the 90s.


00:41:06.810 --> 00:41:21.090

Jim Gass: Were they originally from or based in St Louis before that and are they, like is the actual Danforth foundation still involved in the NGA project as it's going now?


00:41:21.540 --> 00:41:22.110

Rosalind Norman: You know what, that's an interesting question.


00:41:24.810 --> 00:41:30.840

Rosalind Norman: If you, you do your research, go back and look, you know let me pull it up, if you want.


00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:36.930

Rosalind Norman: The Danforth Foundation- let me share the screen-it is really a family-


00:41:38.490 --> 00:41:41.940

Rosalind Norman: oriented foundation, just so you know that. If you're familiar with.


00:41:43.260 --> 00:41:45.900

Rosalind Norman: The former Senator John Danforth? Right?


00:41:46.740 --> 00:41:48.420

Jim Gass: The name rings a bell but I can't say I know much about him.


00:41:49.710 --> 00:41:50.700

Rosalind Norman: William Danforth


00:41:50.970 --> 00:41:51.990

Rosalind Norman: with Washington University. The Danforth-


00:41:52.830 --> 00:41:54.600

Rosalind Norman: You know they have part of the campus named after them.


00:41:55.740 --> 00:41:57.420

Rosalind Norman: Okay, so let me pull this up-

Jim Gass: I


00:41:57.420 --> 00:41:58.530

Jim Gass: live right by there actually.


00:41:59.730 --> 00:42:03.810

Rosalind Norman: Pardon?

Jim Gass: I live right by there actually, right by the big sign that says 00:32:00"Danforth campus."


00:42:04.650 --> 00:42:05.520

Rosalind Norman: There you go. I'm going to show you some-


00:42:05.940 --> 00:42:07.500

Rosalind Norman: this is important, i'm glad you raised that question


00:42:18.210 --> 00:42:19.350

Rosalind Norman: Okay, can you see the screen?


00:42:19.620 --> 00:42:20.700

Jim Gass: I can.

Rosalind Norman: OK.


00:42:21.180 --> 00:42:21.960

Rosalind Norman: I will just put in, "who is the Danforth Foundation."


00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:27.780

Rosalind Norman: I didn't


00:42:29.370 --> 00:42:32.010

Rosalind Norman: say what, I said who. So okay now...


00:42:33.480 --> 00:42:43.650

Rosalind Norman: Here we go, here's the answer. Okay, it was 84 years ago that William H. Danforth the pioneer of industry founded what? Ralston Purina. See I want you to really try to see the connection.


00:42:44.220 --> 00:42:51.900

Rosalind Norman: And this is then giving you context. Okay, so if you were to look this up, you see the Danforth family, here it is:


00:42:52.950 --> 00:43:00.150

Rosalind Norman: His wife, Ada, and children Donald and Dorothy created the Danforth Doundation.


00:43:01.890 --> 00:43:19.320

Rosalind Norman: You can see here: the Danforth Foundation was one of the 00:33:00largest private nonprofit foundations in the St. Louis Metropolitan region. It closed its doors and 2011 after 34 years of operation, and more than a billion dollars in grants distributed. This is according to the look-head on Wikipedia, okay.


00:43:20.340 --> 00:43:29.310

Rosalind Norman: It was founded in 1927. Interesting, that was the same year, what? That they opened Vashon High School. I'm just making some


00:43:29.340 --> 00:43:30.600

Rosalind Norman: connections for you okay.


00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:40.680

Rosalind Norman: There are other different foundations and all but, if you think about it, let's look further at the connection okay for


00:43:42.330 --> 00:43:56.700

Rosalind Norman: The Danforth Foundation's legacy in St Louis continues but we want to look at the end of the Danforth Foundation, let's see if we can look at this... Okay, the end of the Danforth Foundation.


00:43:58.440 --> 00:44:04.050

Rosalind Norman: Final gift of 70 million, now this is important, again, giving 00:34:00you context, okay.


00:44:06.120 --> 00:44:13.890

Rosalind Norman: To what? the Donald Danforth Plant Science Center, would have made Jack Danforth, his grandfather, proud. Okay so,


00:44:18.150 --> 00:44:26.100

Rosalind Norman: Anyway, that means, if I can get this down okay i'm just trying to give you this so you can understand, but he is still connected because why?


00:44:26.490 --> 00:44:41.910

Rosalind Norman: You got Ralston Purina right here in St. Louis- downtown St. Louis- in a sense. Just you know, South of City Hall, OK. In fact, South, southeast of City Hall and I'm saying all this to say to you...


00:44:43.620 --> 00:45:03.780

Rosalind Norman: Here, just look through this and make some connections for yourself. Jack Danforth who also works as a partner, all this stuff is connected. Bryan Cave Law Firm, which is one of St. Louis's largest law firms, let's see...these are connected and I'm doing this because I want you to get into



00:45:06.930 --> 00:45:15.450

Rosalind Norman: understanding those stakeholders, Okay, and the role they play and how St. Louis moves forward, Okay, let me pull up, can you still see my screen?


00:45:15.630 --> 00:45:16.740

Jim Gass: I can.

Rosalind Norman: Okay.


00:45:17.340 --> 00:45:25.230

Rosalind Norman: Here is Civic Progress which is very important for you as you do your- if you don't do this I want you to you know, know, okay.


00:45:25.530 --> 00:45:31.710

Rosalind Norman: Here is St. Louis Progress St. Louis's members- well Civic Progress, um, St. Louis's members-


00:45:33.510 --> 00:45:36.510

Rosalind Norman: The reason why I want to bring this up, Okay, because.


00:45:37.680 --> 00:45:46.320

Rosalind Norman: these Members are the ones who really run St. Louis. You may have elected officials, but these people really do run St. Louis even now.


00:45:46.500 --> 00:45:47.130

Jim Gass: Right.


00:45:47.820 --> 00:45:55.740

Rosalind Norman: And this is important for you to understand Okay, because why? The Danforth family, has oftentimes been a part of Civic Progress.


00:45:57.060 --> 00:46:01.950

Rosalind Norman: Danforth, the Danforth family, consider them old money for St. 00:36:00Louis, okay.


00:46:02.310 --> 00:46:03.420

Jim Gass: Right.

Rosalind Norman: okay.


00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:14.070

Rosalind Norman: So here, just look at some of these names and look at their associations, okay? From Anheuser Busch, Ameren, Bayer, which used to be Monsanto, Bank of America...


00:46:14.310 --> 00:46:17.040

Jim Gass: I see Wells Fargo in there, too.

Rosalind Norman: Emerson.


00:46:17.130 --> 00:46:18.840

Rosalind Norman: These are some major players in St. Louis.


00:46:19.380 --> 00:46:32.790

Rosalind Norman: Okay you've noticed, some of them were included, at least representatives were included, in our what? 1999 video. like Yvonne, I still stay in touch with Yvonne, Yvonne was working as a VP, one of the few Black


00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:47.100

Rosalind Norman: females as a VP at Bank of America at the time, in St. Louis, okay? I'm just trying to you know give you context, so you can see there is still something going on, connecting the Boeing company, Cycle, BJC.


00:46:47.970 --> 00:47:06.450

Rosalind Norman: These are just some of the, you know, and Meritz, Washing- There it is, Washington University, um, Gray Bar, St Louis University, Edward Jones, you see the list, okay.

Jim Gass: I do.

Rosalind Norman: These are the groups that really run St. Louis, so if we go on 00:37:00so, here are the ex-officios, just so you know.


00:47:07.530 --> 00:47:20.070

Rosalind Norman: There you, go you see Lyda? Ok, Sam Page. See this is an important thing to know, from university of Missouri St Louis, your own chancellor? to Okay, Dr Kristen, how do you say her last name? Sobolik?


00:47:20.640 --> 00:47:21.420

Jim Gass: Something like that.


00:47:21.780 --> 00:47:35.550

Rosalind Norman: Okay, so what i'm trying to- look at what they're saying: Civic Progress wants to advance initiatives and activity, address urgent needs and long term goals for the St. Louis region. As a small focus organization...


00:47:36.750 --> 00:47:43.980

Rosalind Norman: Except you can read this for yourself, OK.

Jim Gass: OK.

Rosalind Norman: Now i'm going to take you something else on google. Now, again, I'm giving you context.


00:47:45.060 --> 00:47:46.950

Rosalind Norman: I want to keep this real and I want to address this.


00:47:48.660 --> 00:47:52.110

Rosalind Norman: The Veiled Prophet. You have heard of that right?


00:47:52.530 --> 00:47:53.610

Jim Gass: Can you say that again, please.


00:47:54.660 --> 00:47:55.650

Both: The Veiled Prophet


00:47:56.880 --> 00:47:59.160

Rosalind Norman: of St. Louis

Jim Gass: This is not something i've ever heard of before, actually.


00:48:00.330 --> 00:48:02.040

Rosalind Norman: Okay, this is good for me to tell.



00:48:02.400 --> 00:48:03.300

Jim Gass: Yeah, okay.


00:48:03.480 --> 00:48:09.660

Rosalind Norman: Now you see it. Go down, right here to this one, this is very important, look at these images.


00:48:11.010 --> 00:48:15.120

Rosalind Norman: The Veiled Prophet, this is a lot, this is St. Louis, this is real.


00:48:15.360 --> 00:48:15.690

Jim Gass: Right.


00:48:15.780 --> 00:48:20.220

Rosalind Norman: Look at this piece here: "symbol of wealth, power, and to some, racism."


00:48:20.580 --> 00:48:20.760

Rosalind Norman: and then-

Jim Gass: Yeahhhh.


00:48:21.780 --> 00:48:42.090

Rosalind Norman: yeah OK now i'm giving you context, so you can understand why I said what I did about Jeff Vanderlou being in a strategically located neighborhood and why I witness how they purposefully, like Macler said they were going to do, blighted so many homes and different organizations within that community.


00:48:42.330 --> 00:48:54.900

Rosalind Norman: It's all a part of a long term goal which now has resulted in what? the building of NGA West headquarters, which means anything, within a certain


00:48:55.440 --> 00:49:14.430

Rosalind Norman: One now to two mile radius around that new facility is going to 00:39:00have to what? almost be what? changed or leveled or demolished. I'm just being real with you, so you can understand this, this- it's very close to my heart. Okay, so let me


00:49:20.190 --> 00:49:20.820

Rosalind Norman: Let me see if I can et back to this because I think I touched something and lost it...I want to get back to this part.


00:49:21.960 --> 00:49:24.630

Jim Gass: No yeah, This is all blowing my mind.


00:49:24.720 --> 00:49:28.290

Jim Gass: I mean I figured there's a lot of connections like this here, but this is...

Rosalind Norman: I hope it is!


00:49:28.620 --> 00:49:31.830

Jim Gass: This is laying them bare pretty, pretty starkly here.


00:49:32.250 --> 00:49:41.100

Rosalind Norman: There you go and I want you to know this because I think if you want to talk about what, what Lois Conley has fought for for so many years, because really, I've known Lois more than


00:49:42.180 --> 00:49:53.820

Rosalind Norman: 25 years and I think she would be able to help you and i'm just- i'm just laying it out, you know Lois got the museum that she has fought for, she has caught the bag, I mean I remember, even when she first got started.

Jim Gass: Mhm.


00:49:54.240 --> 00:49:54.810

Rosalind Norman: I'm serious.


00:49:55.110 --> 00:50:12.660

Rosalind Norman: But this is what i'm talking about, this is history, this is real and we need to deal with this, we need to make sure that we address this, 00:40:00because we will never get past the in- how can I say this-the indoctrination, the.


00:50:14.070 --> 00:50:16.650

Rosalind Norman: covert form of racism St. Louis.

Jim Gass: Mhm.


00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:17.130

Rosalind Norman: Okay.


00:50:18.480 --> 00:50:25.620

Rosalind Norman: i'm just trying to give you some words right now i'm just thinking off top my head, but the words I'm trying to get at is that racism,


00:50:26.760 --> 00:50:34.380

Rosalind Norman: If you want to call it systemic, if you want to call it structural, it was built into the urban planning of St. Louis the city.


00:50:35.550 --> 00:50:42.240

Rosalind Norman: And now I'm going to give you the power behind that in this article, look at the date on this article: December 22, 2019. So it's


00:50:42.660 --> 00:50:56.220

Rosalind Norman: fairly new, and look at the source. That should be a reliable source, St. Louis Post-Dispatch, you see what i'm getting at, I'm getting at this, so the Post-Dispatch covered the first Veiled Prophet celebration, OK, now go down further, "gracing the city's, what,


00:50:57.510 --> 00:50:58.200

Rosalind Norman: debutantes?"


00:50:59.250 --> 00:51:01.680

Rosalind Norman: A ball, parade, and this is true, because they used to have a 00:41:00Veiled Prophet


00:51:01.680 --> 00:51:03.390

Rosalind Norman: parade, when I was growing up okay.


00:51:04.560 --> 00:51:12.330

Rosalind Norman: Now, this if you keep going, "the prophet's identity is still kept a secret, and his presence still stirs controversy."


00:51:12.720 --> 00:51:24.300

Rosalind Norman: Okay, the ball, used to be held in the fall of every year and the parade used to be on the day of the party. "The organization was co-founded"- here it is- "by former confederate officer Alonzo Slayback."


00:51:24.570 --> 00:51:39.720

Jim Gass: Right.

Rosalind Norman: Remember this article, pull it-I'm not trying to, you know, put something out there that's not true, Okay, "the Prophet crowns a queen every year, the last names"- look at these names-"Kemper, Bush, Danforth, Schnuck..."


00:51:40.500 --> 00:51:42.450

Jim Gass: Knew the Chouteaus were gonna end up in here somewhere.


00:51:43.470 --> 00:51:44.460

Rosalind Norman: Now do you see where I'm going?


00:51:45.810 --> 00:51:46.530

Jim Gass: Mhm.

Rosalind Norman: Good. Schnuck, Schlafly,


00:51:46.890 --> 00:51:53.190

Rosalind Norman: Chouteau, Cabanne, look at these names, okay, "the Veiled Prophet Organization still holds a parade and funds Fair St.


00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:58.350

Rosalind Norman: Louis"- now you see another connection-they fund Fair St Louis to celebrate Independence


00:51:59.430 --> 00:52:04.410

Rosalind Norman: Day. Look at this, this- This is just showing the 1873.



00:52:06.120 --> 00:52:25.710

Rosalind Norman: Veiled Prophet, 1925 Veiled Prophet, so here's the, I mean, 1934 and, yes, I remember lining the streets when I was very young and, of course, there was a time we couldn't go certain places, and look, look at- look at the symbolism, symbolism of the Veiled Prophet, Okay, this is real!


00:52:26.010 --> 00:52:34.800

Jim Gass: Uh huh.

Rosalind Norman: 1947, look at this, look there's some Blacks, some colors, see, there's some colored people, you see a couple colored folk, you know, people of color are present at these parties, right?

Jim Gass: Mhm.

Rosalind Norman: They're watching this parade, right?


00:52:35.820 --> 00:52:50.580

Rosalind Norman: Okay, so I just want you to now understand, why, when you brought the word "stakeholders" to me this is very important because I look at all of this, okay,


00:52:52.200 --> 00:53:03.360

Rosalind Norman: the Kiel Auditorium which is now renamed that you know, but this is important for you to understand when you start talking about Jeff Vanderlou and start talking about why I said,



00:53:03.780 --> 00:53:12.600

Rosalind Norman: and this affects my living firsthand and it was real for me, in Jeff Vanderlou and having mentors and role models like Macler Shepard and Norman Seay.


00:53:13.560 --> 00:53:31.170

Rosalind Norman: Even later on Katherine Nelson and I have have tremendous respect for Congressman William Clay the father of Lacey Clay, who you know just lost the election to the new congresswoman Corey Bush, it's a lot here, I just want you to, if you get a chance go in and look at this okay,


00:53:31.440 --> 00:53:31.920

Rosalind Norman: Because I do not


00:53:32.520 --> 00:53:36.300

Rosalind Norman: want you to not understand these stakeholders and


00:53:36.480 --> 00:53:37.830

Jim Gass: what is happening in St. Louis


00:53:38.640 --> 00:53:39.390

Rosalind Norman: The connection,


00:53:39.480 --> 00:53:39.990

Rosalind Norman: Okay,


00:53:40.440 --> 00:53:48.900

Rosalind Norman: So, that now, I can talk to you and stop sharing this, I can talk to you, and then you can understand why I'm passionate.


00:53:49.770 --> 00:54:00.180

Rosalind Norman: about the neighborhood I grew up in and, get ready for this, I live in near-downtown right next door to Jeff Vanderlou now. I live literally just a few minutes from where Jeff Vanderlou is now.


00:54:01.020 --> 00:54:12.630

Rosalind Norman: Between where City Hall is and Jeff Vanderlou, I know Macler 00:44:00was telling the truth that we're strategically located, Okay, and so i'm saying all this again to say that, now,


00:54:13.140 --> 00:54:24.690

Rosalind Norman: The thing- I remember the language, a couple people I remember talking with when we joined this project, back in 1999, I still remember the language of Rosalind, Jeff Vanderlou is a political, how can I say this,


00:54:29.370 --> 00:54:37.590

Rosalind Norman: They said it's a political football because, it's like, it's like a game, that was being played but it was being played,


00:54:41.340 --> 00:54:42.150

Rosalind Norman: without input or inclusion


00:54:44.790 --> 00:54:47.970

Rosalind Norman: Of the people in the actual neighborhood or community.


00:54:48.660 --> 00:55:03.930

Jim Gass: That's a very apt metaphor, like the idea that it's kind of being passed off back and forth between these t- different stakeholders that are kind of playing a game with it, but- of course, that doesn't take into account, you 00:45:00know, the people that live there and work there.


00:55:05.610 --> 00:55:07.620

Rosalind Norman: Right.

Jim Gass: Political football is pretty apt, it sounds like.

Rosalind Norman: And it still is! Think about it,


00:55:10.590 --> 00:55:12.300

Rosalind Norman: Okay, because one of my concerns now, even though we


00:55:13.980 --> 00:55:22.440

Rosalind Norman: just elected, our first black mayor, you know, Mayor Tishaura Jones, I think it's gonna be interesting to see how she navigates


00:55:22.770 --> 00:55:32.730

Rosalind Norman: You know, all those different relationships with those major stakeholders who have been running, literally running St. Louis, you may have an elected official to a certain extent, just like President of the United States.


00:55:33.030 --> 00:55:39.030

Rosalind Norman: They become a figurehead after a while, because the powers that be is- there's another saying I can remember,


00:55:41.040 --> 00:55:46.710

Rosalind Norman: You know, a distinguished you know, educator saying to me, you know he in fact, this gentleman, he said Rosalind,


00:55:47.820 --> 00:55:58.770

Rosalind Norman: He said remember the locus of power lies with the person who holds the purse strings, in other words, he who wears the money, you know, really controls it.


00:55:59.190 --> 00:56:10.710

Rosalind Norman: You know, so that's in short what I'm saying, you know, you can 00:46:00have people who're supposedly elected supposedly representing, you know, I have different wards Okay, which means all these different neighborhoods, right.


00:56:11.130 --> 00:56:21.420

Rosalind Norman: But what it all boils down okay it's the people that have seen, like those same people who were associated, as you saw, with the Veiled Prophet.


00:56:23.070 --> 00:56:32.610

Rosalind Norman: Okay just- i'm just laying it out there, because they still- all those companies, they have all these different representatives, they are still running what goes on in the City of St. Louis.


00:56:36.930 --> 00:56:50.460

Jim Gass: The uh, imagery and the paegantry associated with the Veiled Prophet, that really makes me think of Carnival in New Orleans and how that was really- That was really a coalescing of the old money of that city,


00:56:51.060 --> 00:56:52.740

Jim Gass: The power players there


00:56:53.700 --> 00:56:58.320

Jim Gass: at least into the late '20s and probably after that, for all I know, but.


00:56:59.700 --> 00:57:12.840

Jim Gass: The way you described Jeff Vanderlou as being a very strategic 00:47:00location, that kind of makes it sound like it's- like I wouldn't call it a multigenerational project to develop it exactly, but like, say a project that spanned


00:57:13.590 --> 00:57:24.030

Jim Gass: You know, however, many mayoral administrations,which- which makes your point about how the new Mayor Tishaura Jones will


00:57:24.690 --> 00:57:40.770

Jim Gass: handle it more interesting because it's sort of like she'd be picking up where all these other administrations have left off at but also, kind of you know, administering that long term projects like in- kind of in her own way, I guess.


00:57:42.210 --> 00:58:00.480

Jim Gass: And it sounds like that- but it sounds like that project, if you want to call it that, like this long term project kind of goes above, like the city government it's more so, and it's more so, something directed by these long term stakeholders that you've been describing go back



00:58:01.770 --> 00:58:06.510

Jim Gass: How many- however many decades. Would you say that, you know,


00:58:08.280 --> 00:58:21.420

Jim Gass: back when you know, Macler Shepard was still doing his work, would you say that the vision included something like the NGA site, or like, say, like a single,


00:58:22.710 --> 00:58:31.650

Jim Gass: Like project that would hopefully I g-I guess, accomplish some goal for the- for not just the neighborhood but the city?


00:58:32.610 --> 00:58:38.040

Rosalind Norman: Let me, let me pull up something too, though...Jeff Vanderlou, city of St. Louis,


00:58:44.160 --> 00:58:45.420

Rosalind Norman: And this comes from


00:58:47.640 --> 00:58:49.350

Rosalind Norman: The Government site on this,


00:58:50.580 --> 00:58:52.680

Rosalind Norman: and wikipedia has something on it, too.


00:58:54.030 --> 00:59:09.480

Rosalind Norman: Let me try to- let me pull this up, so I like to do images sometimes when we're talking Okay, so let me go back to Google okay share Okay. 00:49:00Because again i'm trying to give you accurate information.


00:59:11.880 --> 00:59:18.210

Rosalind Norman: And I really would like for you to get a hold of that printed copy or hard copy that I sent to Dr Lara Kelland


00:59:19.200 --> 00:59:19.890

Jim Gass: I will ask her about it.


00:59:20.340 --> 00:59:21.660

Rosalind Norman: About my report, okay.


00:59:21.840 --> 00:59:22.590

Rosalind Norman: In fact,


00:59:24.810 --> 00:59:30.180

Rosalind Norman: I kept it right here, because I'm right at my desk okay it's called Vashon, in fact, i'll put it up


00:59:31.470 --> 00:59:47.190

Rosalind Norman: In a little bit, it's called Vashon High School Initiative Asset Inventory to go to the Danforth Foundation and then in parentheses it's a revised September 7 1999 you see my old company name, Roz Norman Associates, on the front cover Okay, but it's the only hard copy,


00:59:47.190 --> 00:59:48.210

Rosalind Norman: Because my disc,


00:59:48.420 --> 01:00:02.520

Rosalind Norman: my ROM floppy disk messed up, you know was corrupted, you know, moving back and forth, so I don't have it digitalized- digitized, Okay, so I only have a hard copy I've been able to save all these years Okay, but let me 00:50:00pull this up, so you can see something.


01:00:03.570 --> 01:00:04.740

Rosalind Norman: You still can see


01:00:05.430 --> 01:00:06.480

Rosalind Norman: from your desktop, right?


01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:09.330

Jim Gass: I can.

Roalind Norman: okay, good. okay.


01:00:10.200 --> 01:00:12.660

Rosalind Norman: Okay let's see... okay...


01:00:32.610 --> 01:00:33.240

Rosalind Norman: History...


01:00:37.980 --> 01:00:49.950

Rosalind Norman: Okay here. Okay, "in a time of racial segregation following the end of slavery" okay, this is wikipedia "Jeff Vanderlou was originally designated as the city's negro district."


01:00:50.310 --> 01:00:53.760

Jim Gass: And it was kind of enforced by, like, restrictive covenants correct?


01:00:54.420 --> 01:00:58.320

Rosalind Norman: Here we go. See now you're getting into it, but look at this: you have-


01:00:58.920 --> 01:01:09.690

Rosalind Norman: It was one of the only places where African Americans were 00:51:00allowed to own land, it is also where Sportsman's Park later, known as busch stadium ONE, stood from 1902 to 1966.


01:01:10.020 --> 01:01:18.150

Rosalind Norman: Okay, and it you know gives you the area code to get there but that's Wikipedia, but I want to get you to something more credible, the area is- see, here we go.


01:01:20.490 --> 01:01:23.940

Rosalind Norman: Because you want to go to- this is the government's take on this.


01:01:25.530 --> 01:01:27.690

Rosalind Norman: Because they have their way of describing it, okay.


01:01:28.350 --> 01:01:31.680

Rosalind Norman: It's good to know that okay this is supposed to be a reliable source, okay.


01:01:33.120 --> 01:01:41.640

Rosalind Norman: And it gives you the boundaries okay of Jeff Vanderlou, now here's where they have a little bit of the history, okay it's part of the area referred to as the Yeatman area.


01:01:42.330 --> 01:01:53.820

Rosalind Norman: "Named for prominent Tennessee," you know, natives, Okay, then it goes on and talks about director of the Western Sanitary Commission during the Civil War, see now you're going to get a little bit of flavor. The Confederacy


01:01:54.210 --> 01:02:05.160

Rosalind Norman: has so much connection with even the city of St Louis and when I say strategically located, you know I think I can say that it is strategically 00:52:00located for the City of


01:02:05.250 --> 01:02:06.630

Rosalind Norman: St. Louis, right in the heart of it all.


01:02:06.630 --> 01:02:07.830

Rosalind Norman: and then it goes into


01:02:08.400 --> 01:02:09.150

Rosalind Norman: The history here.


01:02:09.510 --> 01:02:09.990

Rosalind Norman: Okay.


01:02:11.070 --> 01:02:21.570

Rosalind Norman: "Since its inception, it's a residential, commercial, and" i'm gonna get you to- what I wouldn't- when Jeff Vanderlou was in its Heyday under Macler Shepard


01:02:22.290 --> 01:02:33.810

Rosalind Norman: Okay, it was on- okay it was during the days when JVL was on the edge of St Louis as opposed to being in the thick of it today, it was home to one of the city's" there it is


01:02:36.690 --> 01:02:38.220

Rosalind Norman: "elite private streets, Vandeventer Place"

Jim Gass: Good okay.


01:02:38.550 --> 01:02:42.420

Jim Gass: We read about that quite a bit Dr Kelland's class, last semester.

Rosalind Norman: Okay, good.


01:02:42.480 --> 01:02:53.010

Rosalind Norman: Good now you see why i'm getting ready to say this. "After years of loss due to disinvestment and neglect" didn't I tell you Macler had warned me back in the late


01:02:53.820 --> 01:03:00.300

Rosalind Norman: 60s, early 70s, I just gave you validation of what he said and what I just told you.


01:03:01.560 --> 01:03:14.460

Rosalind Norman: We have years of loss due to, investment and neglect that right there to me 00:53:00indicates purpose in what? Blighting that area, so that it can what? Be


01:03:14.910 --> 01:03:15.300

Rosalind Norman: Set aside or


01:03:15.960 --> 01:03:26.400

Rosalind Norman: Something else for political or economic gain. I'm just putting it out there, then it goes on to say "Vandeventer Place were sacrificed and replaced with public institutions."


01:03:27.180 --> 01:03:34.020

Rosalind Norman: You have the, you know, you have the "eastern edge is the VA Medical center" off of Grand, right there near Bell, okay.


01:03:34.440 --> 01:03:43.200

Rosalind Norman: Oh, "in 1947 the city acquired the Western portion" and it keeps on going. The old sports- Sportsman's Park, former home of the St. Louis Browns and St. Louis Cardinals.


01:03:43.620 --> 01:03:56.190

Rosalind Norman: It now the site of the Boys and Girls Club. See all this is connected, i'm just- you know that's- that's the city's site, Okay, their history information, just so you know, okay. Ummm, let me get back to- i'm just trying to


01:03:56.610 --> 01:04:06.210

Rosalind Norman: Get back to your whole thing. What Macler had with- Macler Shepard was working and he was really creating this thriving Black,



01:04:06.990 --> 01:04:19.080

Rosalind Norman: You know, low income community that was identified as Jeff Vanderlou, right, okay in that Community- this is the truth- we had actual


01:04:19.710 --> 01:04:28.080

Rosalind Norman: we had-we had a medical clinic there, we had-we had all sorts of health services in that community, there were actual places in that community


01:04:28.470 --> 01:04:37.440

Rosalind Norman: that was in Jeff Vanderlou, we had the Brown Shoe Company, that company took- and built a factory from the ground up right there off the Jefferson, it


01:04:38.040 --> 01:04:50.520

Rosalind Norman: sits- let me see if I can find that- it sits right off Jefferson, it's got the eastern end of Jeff Vanderlou right there at Jefferson, where, across the street from it would have been- or is!- the Gateway


01:04:52.380 --> 01:05:10.950

Rosalind Norman: Gateway Middle- No, elementary and middle school, Okay, if I can- and all that was blighted, we actually had the Brown Shoe Company build a 00:55:00factory right there in our Community and hire the people. I'm telling you this- I'm telling you the truth, Okay, also in the Community we had


01:05:12.720 --> 01:05:14.910

Rosalind Norman: We had Opportunity House, let me point that out to you.


01:05:16.290 --> 01:05:24.660

Rosalind Norman: There again coming from in the community, if you're going to have people who have moved, who have migrated, think about this, from the South


01:05:25.260 --> 01:05:35.670

Rosalind Norman: And they end up stopping off in St. Louis and was living in Mill Creek area, and then you know into the Jeff Vanderlou area and were moving into the Jeff Vanderlou are, Macler was what?


01:05:36.060 --> 01:05:49.770

Rosalind Norman: renovating a lot of those old homes, one of the things he would say, as long as the bricks and the structure is safe and sound, you can go in and renovate. That was Macler- this essence of his, you know philosophy for renovation right?


01:05:50.250 --> 01:06:01.800

Rosalind Norman: And so, in order for people who were not accustomed to owning their own home, he'd have those homes renovated and that would then give them the opportunity to buy it. Understand this.



01:06:02.340 --> 01:06:11.400

Rosalind Norman: He put them into Opportunity House, you know for the family who was placed, you know, wanted to renovate it and wanted to own it as a home,


01:06:11.880 --> 01:06:21.810

Rosalind Norman: into Opportunity House- that was the name of it- was a transitional place for their family, while their home was being renovated, and at the same time,


01:06:22.200 --> 01:06:30.000

Rosalind Norman: It was preparing them for home ownership, because so many of those families, this would be the first time they would own their own home.


01:06:30.510 --> 01:06:38.190

Rosalind Norman: So in Opportunity House Macler took different people from the Community and all the different organizations he had working with him, they set up


01:06:38.580 --> 01:06:51.360

Rosalind Norman: they had temporary housing for that family while their home was being renovated, they set up a place, actual place where the family could live at the same time, and learn what it would


01:06:51.720 --> 01:06:52.170

Rosalind Norman: Take


01:06:52.470 --> 01:07:06.450

Rosalind Norman: To maintain property, which was their home, Okay, how do you do, you know, simple repairs, what do you need to do, you know how to budget, 00:57:00for, you know, the unexpected, all of that. Can you believe that?


01:07:07.500 --> 01:07:12.300

Rosalind Norman: Back then! There was the kind of foresight and that was happening in that neighborhood then, okay.


01:07:13.110 --> 01:07:24.270

Jim Gass: That's the kind of work that nonprofits still do today, like it's still a novel idea and you're talking about this being decades ago, that this idea was like being implemented. With- with success, it sounds like.


01:07:24.390 --> 01:07:26.010

Jim Gass: with serious success.

Rosalind Norman: There you go. I'm not even-sure that they- i'm typing this in- I don't know if you can still see this screen,


01:07:30.780 --> 01:07:42.810

Rosalind Norman: i'm not even sure how much they kept about, you know, what was going on in Jeff Vanderlou, Okay, but if you look at- see, the opportunity- see, they may not call it that, but that's what we called it


01:07:43.770 --> 01:07:54.570

Rosalind Norman: Within the Community. "Small church steps up to help rebuild a broken north-" see guess what they call it now, again here we go. If we were to look at this, and a little bit of this may


01:07:54.960 --> 01:08:06.150

Rosalind Norman: pop into play for you too because I would imagine you want to, you know, look at the connection between the past of Jeff Vanderlou and then 00:58:00what they talking about now.


01:08:08.640 --> 01:08:20.940

Jim Gass: Absolutely

Rosalind Norman: So you have the Tabernacle Community Development Corp, you know DNS from within the Community, the church with, you know, that's, you know, i'm working to,


01:08:21.390 --> 01:08:36.030

Rosalind Norman: In essence, you know remember the days almost sixty, you know, years ago, getting that started again, you see it coming again from people who are familiar with how things should come from within the Community. Um, we had, Oh, my goodness,


01:08:37.290 --> 01:08:52.770

Rosalind Norman: We just had- we had a lot of things in our Community for that Community- Here, this is another very important piece: "Jeff Vanderlou, an area roughly bounded by Delmar Boulevard and Natural Bridge,


01:08:53.580 --> 01:09:04.530

Rosalind Norman: Jefferson and Vandeventer Avenues, once was one of the most densely populated neighborhoods in the city. It had big employers," now, look at 00:59:00these names, okay.


01:09:04.830 --> 01:09:13.950

Jim Gass: Right.

Rosalind Norman: such as Carter Carburetor, my mom even worked a Carter Carburetor for a while, when she was working all kinds of jobs while she went to school to finish her undergrad,


01:09:14.880 --> 01:09:21.600

Rosalind Norman: yeah at St. Louis University and she started working on her Masters and she was in her 50s and yet she came from a family of sharecroppers. I'm just trying to give you


01:09:21.930 --> 01:09:32.940

Rosalind Norman: You know, the lay of the land and all of us right there struggling in Jeff Vanderlou but we had that pride but look at this, this is why I say "strategically located" you had, at Carter Carburetor at that time, Coca Cola,


01:09:33.660 --> 01:09:44.760

Rosalind Norman: you had major anchors like Sportsman's Park, you know which is home of the Browns, you know the National Negro League Browns and the Cardinals Okay, so you got to think about this. New research


01:09:44.790 --> 01:09:57.690

Rosalind Norman: by St. Louis University sociologists, okay, shows how back then, in the 1950s, those years the city population peaked, Okay. Jeff Vanderlou, though, as you know is down to about 5000 people, largest numerical loss of any neighborhood


01:09:57.690 --> 01:09:58.260

Rosalind Norman: in the city


01:09:58.530 --> 01:09:59.370

Rosalind Norman: to date,


01:09:59.610 --> 01:10:00.240

Rosalind Norman: so,


01:10:00.450 --> 01:10:07.380

Rosalind Norman: See you back then I watched that. I watched it with my eyes how 01:00:00that played out. "In the time it took for Jeff Vanderlou to


01:10:08.190 --> 01:10:23.490

Rosalind Norman: lose 34,500 people, the city saw TEN mayors" there's the answer to your question- "come and go." okay. Mayors! Ten! Each of them vowed to fight blight, that's- that's why this whole thing with mayor, you know, Jones will be interesting.


01:10:23.760 --> 01:10:33.660

Rosalind Norman: "They vowed to fight blight and stop the exodus of residents," okay, so i'm just pointing it out, you know so it can again reinforce what i'm trying to get to


01:10:34.830 --> 01:10:39.780

Rosalind Norman: you. Even though, you know, it sounds like i'm being very emotional, i'm trying to give you some facts as well okay.


01:10:41.250 --> 01:10:54.270

Jim Gass: Certainly.

Rosalind Norman: And when I say opportunity house, I mean that. All that we had in place in Jeff Van- I know, Okay, I remember, even going to one of the small health clinics, I went to a dentist right there in that area.


01:10:54.600 --> 01:11:11.280

Rosalind Norman: as a kid. We had Duvall Elementary School to walk- all our schools were in walking distance, Duvall, Dunbar, you un- you understand this? 01:01:00You understand what i'm saying right across on Jefferson was a part of the area, we had St Bridgette's Catholic Church and Monsignor Shockley- Well he


01:11:12.030 --> 01:11:29.070

Rosalind Norman: was Father Shockley back then, he's now a Monsignor, he was very involved in what was going on in Jeff Vanderlou, see these names are now beginning to come back to me again, some of the people who were committed and helped that community to thrive, okay.


01:11:30.450 --> 01:11:41.520

Rosalind Norman: and here it is! Remember I said Jeff Vanderlou was a national model for Community-led redevelopment, that's the language they use now, the language we used to use was "urban" you know, redevelopment, okay.


01:11:41.940 --> 01:11:50.910

Rosalind Norman: Or urban renewal okay, back in, you know the 80s and the 90s Okay, but you can see right here, it says there, a national model for Community Redevleopment. It came from within.


01:11:51.450 --> 01:12:09.390

Rosalind Norman: It was just like the whole push for the building of Vashon. It came from within the community first, okay. Um so i'm hoping i'm giving you some information that you can use okay and other sources to you know to hopefully 01:02:00validate you know some of the remarks.


01:12:10.530 --> 01:12:11.250

Jim Gass: Absolutely.


01:12:13.140 --> 01:12:22.470

Rosalind Norman: Is this helping at all?

Jim Gass: Oh yes, definitely, this is really- this is really tying together a lot of what we have from our previous two interviews about the various sites and you know their role.


01:12:23.070 --> 01:12:31.320

Jim Gass: In the Community over time, you know, we talked with one of our interviewees quite a bit about how many doctors and dentists lived in Jeff Vanderlou when she was growing up


01:12:32.400 --> 01:12:36.060

Jim Gass: uh, You know, how they worked in the various clinics, how likely they were to do House calls, um,


01:12:38.700 --> 01:12:39.150

Jim Gass: So, ah,


01:12:40.980 --> 01:12:43.320

Jim Gass: I did have a question, i'm trying to remember what it was.


01:12:47.820 --> 01:12:55.290

Jim Gass: So um...i'm going back to Macler Shepard was he in any sense, motivated by the


01:12:57.060 --> 01:13:08.640

Jim Gass: What they-welll you know- by what happened to Mill Creek Valley and by 01:03:00the exodus of people there, or from there to Jeff Vanderlou and other neighborhoods in North St Louis?

Rosalind Norman: Can you still


01:13:08.880 --> 01:13:09.630

Rosalind Norman: see my screen?


01:13:09.960 --> 01:13:10.740

Jim Gass: Yes, yes, I can.


01:13:10.890 --> 01:13:23.400

Rosalind Norman: OK OK, so I think pro- Macler Shepard in starting Jeff Vanderlou, Macler Shepard, of course, who was much older then me, he would probably be around my mom's age, all of them would have been in the same age group.


01:13:24.630 --> 01:13:26.250

Rosalind Norman: which had he lived would probably be


01:13:26.280 --> 01:13:35.040

Rosalind Norman: pushing late eighties, Okay, but Helen Robinson, believe it or not, she's still living there, she's what, 87 this year, I think? Anyway, and


01:13:35.280 --> 01:13:36.120

Rosalind Norman: see, Helen


01:13:36.240 --> 01:13:38.520

Rosalind Norman: is the one in our video. She was the one to say,


01:13:38.580 --> 01:13:40.530

Rosalind Normanf: we went to you know.


01:13:40.650 --> 01:13:43.680

Rosalind Norman: Vashon was here at this site at Harris-Stowe, that was Helen.


01:13:44.010 --> 01:13:44.790

Rosalind Norman: and she's still living.


01:13:46.050 --> 01:13:47.640

Rosalind Norman: And she still has, I mean she's


01:13:47.670 --> 01:13:48.180

Rosalind Norman: got her


01:13:48.210 --> 01:13:48.540

Rosalind Norman: wit


01:13:48.570 --> 01:13:51.990

Rosalind Norman: And everything about her, and she gets around and she,


01:13:52.110 --> 01:13:53.160

Rosalind Norman: Oh man, she'd be another


01:13:53.190 --> 01:13:54.360

Rosalind Norman: person that you should talk with.


01:13:54.360 --> 01:14:01.560

Rosalind Norman: But anyway, this diverse history of Jeff Vanderlou, "Our new neighborhood once known as this" so anyway, "across the street from all this," this is good



01:14:01.710 --> 01:14:02.760

Rosalind Norman: for you to look at,


01:14:02.760 --> 01:14:03.480

Rosland Norman: the, uh, diverse


01:14:04.170 --> 01:14:04.590

Rosalind Norman: history of


01:14:05.550 --> 01:14:06.060

Rosalind Norman: Jeff Vanderlou


01:14:06.630 --> 01:14:11.160

Rosalind Norman: And that whole movement and you're right, there is a connection with


01:14:11.340 --> 01:14:11.880

Rosalind Norman: What went


01:14:11.910 --> 01:14:18.570

Rosalind Norman: On in Mill Creek 'cause why? Jeff Vanderlou sits right, right there, think about it! Where Harris-Stowe is,


01:14:19.140 --> 01:14:26.610

Rosalind Norman: is really, ah, part of that area that will be referred to as the Mill Creek area, if we were to look at all...


01:14:32.550 --> 01:14:33.030

Rosalind Norman:


01:14:40.380 --> 01:14:42.570

Rosalind Norman: Mill Creek...of St. Louis... and let's see, oh Norton.


01:14:46.230 --> 01:14:47.580

Rosalind Norman:


01:14:55.740 --> 01:14:59.730

Rosalind Norman: 'Cause you right, Okay, so there would have been a connection I would think,



01:15:03.240 --> 01:15:04.380

Rosalind Norman:


01:15:07.470 --> 01:15:17.640

Rosalind Norman: And if you do do mapping, you can see what I mean by how Jeff- where Jeff Vanderlou is and Mill Creek would have been how they were right there,


01:15:18.300 --> 01:15:27.000

Rosalind Norman: literally next to each other, so it makes sense that you would have, you know, so many Black people who were pushed out and displaced when


01:15:27.390 --> 01:15:35.670

Rosalind Norman: They went through and started to demolish you know those homes in Mill Creek Valley area, you know it just makes sense to allow those you know,


01:15:36.360 --> 01:15:49.560

Rosalind Norman: residents or individual families moved right into Jeff Vanderlou because why? It's just like it's just literally just North of where Mill Creek Valley would have been, and these places like this one, the tenements,


01:15:50.220 --> 01:16:04.800

Rosalind Norman: I literally grew up in something similar to that, okay that was real to me when I told that i'm not sure I told you that, but the home and the way they were attached, and they were almost like what some people refer to as 01:06:00the sharp line,


01:16:04.830 --> 01:16:06.480

Jim Gass: Yes.

Rosalind Norman: Okay.


01:16:06.960 --> 01:16:17.340

Rosalind Norman: And literally, you have, can you imagine families of you know, four, five, six, eight, you know what I'm saying, live in a place like that, you know, literally people on top of each other, so, um,


01:16:17.910 --> 01:16:26.820

Rosalind Norman: So i'm just saying, when Macler came along with you know the concept of you know, looking at these places and, you know, literally


01:16:28.830 --> 01:16:34.530

Rosalind Norman: Taking those brick structures and looking at them and saying, Okay, you know, what can we do to make them more livable?


01:16:34.920 --> 01:16:43.200

Rosalind Norman: Okay, think about that, you know, so you right, Mill Creek Valley would have had a tremendous impact on what was happening in Jeff Vanderlou.


01:16:43.530 --> 01:16:53.850

Rosalind Norman: Or what WOULD happen in Jeff Vanderlou, should I say that. And then here from that "America's Divided City," that is another piece that you may want to look at and I think there's an


01:16:55.770 --> 01:17:02.190

Rosalind Norman: Because I know the artist for that, ummm, what is it called... "Divided City"



01:17:04.650 --> 01:17:07.800

Rosalind Norman: ummmm, book, let me see this, the same one i'm thinking about.


01:17:09.840 --> 01:17:20.670

Rosalind Norman: Because the one that i'm thinking about would be talking about St Louis, and I'm pretty sure the author's from St. Louis, because I know they have a lot of the same


01:17:21.720 --> 01:17:24.630

Rosalind Norman: titles, if I can... see, I think, Mark


01:17:27.000 --> 01:17:27.390

Rosalind Norman: Abbot, 'cause he-I think it's his book because...Dr. Mark Abbott...divided...


01:17:34.350 --> 01:17:36.300

Jim Gass: it's not a real recent one, is it?


01:17:37.470 --> 01:17:40.770

Rosalind Norman: yeah fairly recent, it probably would have been out in the last couple-yeah, here it is.


01:17:41.790 --> 01:18:00.510

Rosalind Norman: Divided City 2022, it was two-it was Washington University scholars and that's Mark Abbot, he used to work at Harris Stowe along with this Professor from Washington University, there it is, Segregation by Design, it's based on the Divided City Initiative, okay, but that's the name of it, oh man.


01:18:00.780 --> 01:18:11.940

Rosalind Norman: Here it is, I mean, it's a lot that they cover in the Divided 01:08:00City, or Segregation by Design, so here it is, right here, okay.


01:18:12.840 --> 01:18:24.090

Rosalind Norman: And yes, this is- it is a creative exchange, I know the person that runs it, I met Mark Abbot, they did a whole exhibit on this,.


01:18:24.930 --> 01:18:44.940

Rosalind Norman: I mean yeah this will help you too, because it's- it's-it's just a lot of research going into that and it's looking at it, even though you're talking about architecture, talking about urban design and all that, but it gets you also into the history as well, Okay, they never cover


01:18:46.380 --> 01:18:51.870

Rosalind Norman: The different neighborhoods such as Mill Creek valley, Jeff Vanderlou, and all that okay so, um,


01:18:53.580 --> 01:18:54.510

Rosalind Norman: yeah and you can just...see the top of that map or part of it...let's see...


01:18:59.730 --> 01:19:01.260

Rosalind Norman: SO it's called Segregation by Design.



01:19:03.600 --> 01:19:05.100

Jim Gass: Okay. Um,


01:19:07.050 --> 01:19:13.110

Jim Gass: Talking about the ways in which what happened to Mill Creek might resonate with people in Jeff Vand- or,


01:19:14.370 --> 01:19:24.480

Jim Gass: People who then grew up in Jeff Vanderlou a generation later, do you think the construction of I-70, kind of, you know, going through that neighborhood,


01:19:24.990 --> 01:19:35.850

Jim Gass: Do you think that probably resonated in the same way with the residents, just because of how many of their homes got cleared for a highway that sort of split the area- like North St Louis in half?


01:19:36.690 --> 01:19:40.650

Rosalind Norman: Of course, you know even Lois Conley talks about that, because she grew up in Val Creek,


01:19:42.030 --> 01:19:44.760

Rosalind Norman: Well, in- let me get it right,


01:19:52.050 --> 01:20:06.990

Rosalind Norman: she grew up in the Mill Creek Valley herself, Okay, I grew up in Jeff Vanderlou and she grew up in Mill Creek, okay, and she talks about her experience, okay so Lois can also talk about that. okay um let me if I 01:10:00can get back,


01:20:08.160 --> 01:20:09.180

Rosalind Norman: Here we go.


01:20:12.000 --> 01:20:13.050

Rosalind Norman: Can you still see this?


01:20:14.100 --> 01:20:15.090

Jim Gass: Uh yes, yes I can.


01:20:15.570 --> 01:20:19.860

Rosalind Norman: Destroyer of the urban fabric of St Louis, "Many people know of Robert Moses the urban planner who


01:20:21.000 --> 01:20:32.970

Rosalind Norman: changed to city's landscape..." we were talking about that earlier, "razing historic neighborhoods and constructing urban highways and large apartment buildings," Okay, well, he came to St. Louis, "many are unaware of his St. Louis contemporary" well, we were.


01:20:34.380 --> 01:20:34.680

Rosalind Norman: That


01:20:36.060 --> 01:20:39.000

Rosalind Norman: This is an answer, maybe, to what you're talking about.


01:20:39.330 --> 01:20:43.890

Jim Gass: Yeah I just saw this article the other day ,I didn't- I didn't read through the whole thing but.


01:20:45.210 --> 01:20:51.450

Rosalind Norman: yeah yeah you're seeing- now you guys understand why I kept saying Jeff Vanderlou is strategically located


01:20:51.810 --> 01:20:52.380

Jim Gass: Yeah.

Rosalind Norman: To the plan


01:20:52.440 --> 01:21:08.550

Rosalind Norman: For the city of St. Louis because why? Right here, right here, you see, "the man who brought him to St Louis was Luther" didn't I say, Ely 01:11:00Smith, "who would later be the man who envisioned the Arch grounds as a national park." In order for them to look at having, um,


01:21:11.190 --> 01:21:23.400

Rosalind Norman: How can I say this, the riverfront okay to be an attraction to the city of St Louis- Here's a map, Okay, think about what's happening now.


01:21:24.060 --> 01:21:28.470

Rosalind Norman: Okay, but urban planning doesn't just look at the here and now.


01:21:29.190 --> 01:21:39.090

Rosalind Norman: True urban planning, which also remember I had been saying this, they had been planning 50 and 75 years down the road okay into the future, okay they had to have that kind of vision.


01:21:39.510 --> 01:21:46.350

Rosalind Norman: Okay, so if you think back to what time period you're looking at, when you're looking at


01:21:47.070 --> 01:21:56.760

Rosalind Norman: Probably what, the fact that he came to St. Louis in 1916, um, "first full time urban planner, a position he held until 1950," you understand what I'm getting at


01:21:57.240 --> 01:22:09.390

Rosalind Norman: getting ready to try to connect for you, is that this was years 01:12:00in the making, because why? Look at the map, they, you know, they wanted certain neighborhoods.


01:22:10.140 --> 01:22:23.520

Rosalind Norman: You know, and when I say "they," those same people getting that- I'm getting you right back to Civic Progress, those members of Civic Progress, they have specific plans and visions for the city of St Louis as a riverfront


01:22:25.590 --> 01:22:36.930

Rosalind Norman: commerce area. Understand what i'm saying, that's why i'm saying he who holds the purse holds the locus of power, money drives everything, you have elected officials, that's why I, to be honest with you.


01:22:38.040 --> 01:22:48.840

Rosalind Norman: It will be surprising to see just how much the new mayor Jones can get done, because why? President Biden, and his administration what?


01:22:50.190 --> 01:22:50.880

Rosalind Norman: Just released how much money, and St. Louis got what? Was it $500 Million?


01:22:54.690 --> 01:22:56.160

Jim Gass: That sounds about right.


01:22:58.650 --> 01:23:07.200

Jim Gass: i'm not sure about how recently, but I know that.... I guess that's 01:13:00distinct from the money that the state has been sitting on for a little while.


01:23:09.000 --> 01:23:09.480

Jim Gass: I don't know if I...


01:23:10.230 --> 01:23:11.430

Jim Gass: I don't know if I read that story.


01:23:12.240 --> 01:23:15.300

Rosalind Norman: What is it called, the American Rescue funds for St. Louis...


01:23:21.630 --> 01:23:21.870

Rosalind Norman: I'm trying to see if I can get this in here.


01:23:25.890 --> 01:23:26.400

Rosalind Norman: and see that's a maj- here it is.


01:23:27.930 --> 01:23:31.080

Rosalind Norman: Right here: "President Biden Announces American Rescue Plan, St. Louis."


01:23:32.670 --> 01:23:33.510

Rosalind Norman: Out of that plan,


01:23:35.010 --> 01:23:44.550

Rosalind Norman: I do believe we're looking at and see, Mayor Krewson made sure she put certain things in place before she left, and I remember her name was on that with Civic Progress.


01:23:44.790 --> 01:23:46.140

Jim Gass: Right, as an ex officio.


01:23:46.560 --> 01:23:56.550

Rosalind Norman: Yeah you got to remember somethings, got to- you can see, she made sure, she purposfully did some things before she left office. Okay, so if we look at this.


01:23:57.660 --> 01:24:02.880

Rosalind Norman: Okay, just quickly again, i'm just, you know, trying to get you to understand if you go...



01:24:04.200 --> 01:24:04.710

Rosalind Norman: Look how much St. Louis gets


01:24:06.360 --> 01:24:12.180

Rosalind Norman: ... I thought it was 500 thou... no $500 million


01:24:18.510 --> 01:24:18.690

Rosalind Norman: That's not what I wanted, go back....


01:24:22.830 --> 01:24:24.540

Rosalind Norman: Or investing because this may be important.


01:24:36.090 --> 01:24:36.900

Rosalind Norman: Oh okay, there we go.


01:24:38.460 --> 01:24:43.620

Rosalind Norman: This is what- 500 million, okay "the city is expected to receive from Biden's American Rescue Plan,"


01:24:44.760 --> 01:24:55.020

Rosalind Norman: uh, "is in direct financial assistance, the City of St. Louis is expected to receive. Okay, so in a framework plan to be found online here, "Build Back a better St Louis."


01:24:56.490 --> 01:25:06.060

Rosalind Norman: "is designed to serve as a starting point for considerations so that the city can urgently move to deploy these transformations," anyway, "and 01:15:00those historic resources" but anyway um.


01:25:06.960 --> 01:25:12.600

Jim Gass: $61 million for the housing crisis, 78 for various public safety initiatives...


01:25:13.620 --> 01:25:24.690

Rosalind Norman: There you go.

Jim Gass: Yes, yet 34 to address unemployment and small business, 80 million for infrastructure yeah, 175 for office of general revenue.


01:25:27.960 --> 01:25:31.770

Jim Gass: Yeah that's a lot of money, and I wonder how much of...


01:25:36.540 --> 01:25:39.180

Jim Gass: it's hard to understand those like- amount-


01:25:39.630 --> 01:25:44.100

Jim Gass: That- like those amounts of money, because just from


01:25:44.850 --> 01:26:03.720

Jim Gass: Like, my background includes like smaller grants of, you know, much less, and you know those are those usually even at smaller amounts those require have a lot of stipulations attached to them for how they can use- be used, and I wonder if those same stipulations apply to these amounts



01:26:05.250 --> 01:26:12.570

Jim Gass: Here...

Rosalind Norman: I would hope...

Jim Gass: In terms of like what the city can spend on infrastructure and stuff or I wonder if it's more so, you know, just...


01:26:13.680 --> 01:26:15.930

Jim Gass: Like, not to say it's a blank check, but if it...


01:26:18.930 --> 01:26:23.97

Jim Gass: Is- if it can just be spent in any public infrastructure or public safety or the housing crisis.


01:26:25.980 --> 01:26:35.580

Rosalind Norman: But look at this Okay, the very first bullet says 61 million, to address the city's looming housing crisis including expanded services and shelters for the


01:26:35.940 --> 01:26:42.870

Rosalind Norman: unhoused community which by the way, I am- I went to every day and it breaks my heart, because I still see a majority of


01:26:43.350 --> 01:26:58.980

Rosalind Norman: People of color, particularly black males, okay, various ages, I'm talking about teens, all the way up to, you know, older black males right here, if I mean out my window, I can see them, you know, and you may want to call them homeless and now we saying unhoused.


01:27:00.510 --> 01:27:12.000

Rosalind Norman: Okay, I see it, ok, I live it, they can come to try and build 01:17:00you know cuz I'm right here, in this area, and this concerns me, that very first bullet, okay "additional rental and mortgage assistance


01:27:12.420 --> 01:27:30.270

Rosalind Norman: and expanding affordable housing. I've seen firsthand what happened to Jeff Vanderlou when they start talking about- the Danforth Foundation was talking about, Oh we'll help put some money in there for housing. We'll see how this will play out, Okay, the first bullet. The second one you were getting into was looking at


01:27:31.620 --> 01:27:45.360

Rosalind Norman: support for various public safety initiatives impacted by the pandemic and what have you, city-owned vacant buildings to help repopulate neighborhoods and create home ownership opportunities. Some key words in there.


01:27:46.140 --> 01:27:55.680

Rosalind Norman: So it's gonna be interesting, okay, i'm just putting it out there for you, you know because if we're talking about what happened in the Mill Creek Valley,


01:27:56.550 --> 01:28:06.960

Rosalind Norman: You know which when you look back, a lot of black folks had migrated here from the South, you know, pretty much all, you know, how can I 01:18:00say, concentrated?


01:28:07.380 --> 01:28:15.120

Rosalind Norman: In What, then, if you want to use the word "slum" or "ghetto" okay, that's what, okay, so


01:28:15.720 --> 01:28:26.370

Rosalind Norman: if you want to label it, that's what it would have been labeled, Okay, then you see how they still were able to manage to make their area or you know, poor,


01:28:27.030 --> 01:28:38.520

Rosalind Norman: incoming migrants from the South to still try to make it livable and make it home, Okay. And then to have that demolished and then you have those who were able to what?


01:28:39.270 --> 01:28:56.640

Rosalind Norman: Transition from there into Jeff Vanderlou, and watch how Jeff Vanderlou just like, almost like what they did to Mill Creek but did it a little more covertly because why? Jeff Vanderlou had gained too much attention at a time, okay, when


01:28:59.190 --> 01:29:09.420

Rosalind Norman: nationwide there was attention, back in the 60s and 70s, on 01:19:00model cities, urban renewal Okay, so they had to start it like, covertly


01:29:09.420 --> 01:29:09.630

Jim Gass: Yeah.


01:29:09.990 --> 01:29:17.070

Rosalind Norman: You know, work, the urban, you know, design, you know that will impact that area. I'm just being real with you so it's gonna be


01:29:17.550 --> 01:29:33.090

Rosalind Norman: very very interesting to see how this plays out, see what really happens to this money, because let me also tell you this, if you heard in that video Macler, I mean not Macler, but Mike McMillan he was alderman then, when they came into, um, ah,


01:29:34.740 --> 01:29:46.740

Rosalind Norman: The plans for the building the new Vashon, he said $35 million, did he not, that new Vashon High School was supposed to have a major football field, a tennis court, a swimming pool, all that stuff.


01:29:46.830 --> 01:29:47.400

Jim Gass: Yeah.

Rosalind Norman: You go there now, do you see that?


01:29:47.850 --> 01:29:59.700

Rosalind Norman: No, so what happened to all that $35 million that was supposed to have been invested in the building of the new Vashon and looking at where it is and what it looks like now.


01:30:00.210 --> 01:30:10.950

Rosalind Norman: You know so i'm serious i'm very concerned about this kind of 01:20:00money and be, to be honest with you, 60-61 million's not a whole lot of money. I'm being very honest with you.


01:30:10.950 --> 01:30:12.390

Rosalind Norman: Not in today's market.


01:30:14.730 --> 01:30:30.480

Rosalind Norman: I'm just being real, okay? um it's gonna be, again, a political football Okay, because you talk about $500 million and even though you see how Lyda Krewson laid down her framework, you better believe


01:30:32.070 --> 01:30:37.410

Rosalind Norman: Those tentacles are there from Civic Progress and how that's going to be played out there


01:30:38.460 --> 01:30:40.050

Rosalind Norman: So, even before Jones.


01:30:41.400 --> 01:30:50.220

Rosalind Norman: really has an opportunity to do anything, all this has already been- I'll be honest with you, I'm willing to bet you it's already been accounted for.


01:30:51.540 --> 01:30:52.290

Rosalind Norman: I'm just being honest.


01:30:54.210 --> 01:31:00.570

Jim Gass: Right, it's already been alotted. And I mean, I hope our project ends up reflecting this but...


01:31:02.370 --> 01:31:10.440

Jim Gass: Like the way we're talking about this about how it's kind of played 01:21:00out before like, it's all like history is not exactly repeating itself, but more so rhyming, I mean,


01:31:10.680 --> 01:31:19.920

Jim Gass: to people in our profession, who are like paying attention to those patterns like, they-it's like they're written in, you know,


01:31:20.400 --> 01:31:41.700

Jim Gass: giant neon letters, you know, but that- but I wonder if that's apparent to everybody who you know is look- who is looking into or who's looking into projects like the NGA and hoping that you know, this time it'll be different, in- in some way.


01:31:42.810 --> 01:31:52.920

Jim Gass: I mean, I know the NGA campus is hopefully going to bring jobs to the area, I think that's the reason given most frequently, do- do you see that happening, do you see


01:31:54.600 --> 01:32:07.170

Jim Gass: Do you see people in the area, getting the chance to like, work at the NGA campus and have someplace closer to home, as opposed to needing to like, 01:22:00commute out of the neighborhood for work?


01:32:12.690 --> 01:32:15.000

Rosalind Norman: Ok, I'm glad youo brought that up. Let's look at the time, because you said you had only alotted this for, until 1. Are you gonna have time?


01:32:16.200 --> 01:32:16.500

Jim Gass: Yeah.


01:32:16.800 --> 01:32:23.580

Jim Gass: I think it just- I think it'll, let us keep going as far as I know, i'm still recording it's not giving me any kind of notification, so I think we're good.


01:32:24.420 --> 01:32:24.960

Rosalind Norman: Good.

Jim Gass: Now I


01:32:25.500 --> 01:32:25.860

Jim Gass: would like to hear your take on this.


01:32:27.360 --> 01:32:31.350

Rosalind Norman: I want to bring you into what i'm working on now, Okay, because.


01:32:32.460 --> 01:32:38.910

Rosalind Norman: I started Gateway GIS okay, Gateway GIS is part of, it means what? Geographic Information System.


01:32:39.240 --> 01:32:52.380

Rosalind Norman: But Gateway is bigger than just the gateway to St. Louis in the Arch that we know, is a symbol for gateway to the West, okay, I look at it as- and you look at our logo, in fact, see, I can probably pull this up.


01:32:54.330 --> 01:32:57.810

Rosalind Norman: Because I want to answer this...let see if I can


01:33:01.380 --> 01:33:03.690

Rosalind Norman: share, let me see if I



01:33:08.070 --> 01:33:10.080

Rosalind Norman: Can... you see this right now with my desktop?


01:33:11.400 --> 01:33:15.330

Jim Gass: Ah, I see it but it's still on Norton safe search from what i'm seeing here.


01:33:15.780 --> 01:33:17.580

Rosalind Norman: Let me take it off, and then go back... so we'll do a new share...


01:33:40.050 --> 01:33:41.430

Rosalind Norman: Because I want you to see something.


01:33:43.500 --> 01:33:45.180

Rosalind Norman: If I stop sharing...


01:33:46.530 --> 01:33:49.020

Rosalind Norman: Because I want to get to my desktop, okay.


01:33:52.080 --> 01:33:58.560

Rosalind Norman: because it's on my desktop, so you can understand what I'm about to say about NGA and what i'm trying to do with Gateway GIS, okay so...


01:33:59.730 --> 01:34:02.850

Rosalind Norman: If I can do that do I want to go to,



01:34:02.940 --> 01:34:03.870

Rosalind Norman: This screen,


01:34:04.890 --> 01:34:06.180

Rosalind Norman: and see if I can share...


01:34:12.120 --> 01:34:14.400

Rosalind Norman: This not doing you can't see my desktop yet right?


01:34:15.510 --> 01:34:16.680

Jim Gass: I actually can now.


01:34:17.040 --> 01:34:21.420

Rosalind Norman: Okay, good okay now okay...


01:34:25.590 --> 01:34:28.140

Rosalind Norman: Go to Gateway GIS logo because the logo is what I was talking about. And that'll


01:34:30.390 --> 01:34:32.940

Rosalind Norman: bring you into- okay, that's our logo, Can you see it?

Jim Gass: Yeah, yeah I can.


01:34:35.010 --> 01:34:38.490

Rosalind Norman: That logo, look at it, you see the Arches, right?


01:34:38.940 --> 01:34:39.360

Jim Gass: Oh yeah, I can, now that you mention it.


01:34:41.610 --> 01:34:46.140

Rosalind Norman: Okay, that logo was created as a result of the logo design contest for


01:34:46.170 --> 01:34:47.250

Rosalind Norman: Young people, ages


01:34:47.310 --> 01:34:57.240

Rosalind Norman: 11 to 26, now, and it was two middle school kids who actually were selected, you know out of the local design contest but what happened is that the volunteer


01:34:57.540 --> 01:35:06.690

Rosalind Norman: For Gateway GIS, who was who was also a graphic designer well as a creative director for his own organization, he volunteered and what he did, 01:25:00you know, he was the person that


01:35:07.770 --> 01:35:18.390

Rosalind Norman: was responsible for you know, selecting you know the different designs and coming up with a composite and then came up with this new design, based on what he saw, of interest, okay.


01:35:18.870 --> 01:35:28.260

Rosalind Norman: And the kids, they get paid, you know there's like $500 cash award, and we just paid it because I had one company and his company, they just you know decided they were paid, you know, the two kids.


01:35:28.620 --> 01:35:34.920

Rosalind Norman: Okay, but they took this and his name is Mike Migano, he finished up this design and so,


01:35:35.880 --> 01:35:47.790

Rosalind Norman: You know, I just want to give you context, so the kids were involved in the process, from day one, it was always intended that way, but if I can back you up a little bit Let me close this out, you still see my desktop right.


01:35:48.720 --> 01:35:49.800

Jim Gass: Mhm.

Rosalind Norman: Okay, I want to bring up....


01:35:54.180 --> 01:35:55.260

Rosalind Norman: I'm gonna bring up my....Oh let me bring this up.


01:35:59.130 --> 01:36:05.610

Rosalind Norman: Article about Giving Jazz we kicked off in May of 2019, Okay, the



01:36:06.150 --> 01:36:16.320

Rosalind Norman: We have been featured on the St. Louis Public Radio and then this article was done by the reporter for that, you saw high school students to get instruction on the Hatfield geospatial training, okay.


01:36:16.920 --> 01:36:28.770

Rosalind Norman: Okay, here it is the national geospatial Intelligence Agency, the service, one of the collaborators of Gateway GIS through the NGA partners communication program which the agency has, okay.


01:36:29.010 --> 01:36:29.520

Rosalind Norman: And, yes.


01:36:29.700 --> 01:36:44.250

Rosalind Norman: They did meet with us, but here, very important for you to understand the purpose of Gateway GIS. It's a volunteer program that means i've traded, this initiative is volunteer-driven, okay.


01:36:44.430 --> 01:36:48.900

Rosalind Norman: But it's providing what? Our kids and the neighborhood where I grew up,


01:36:49.950 --> 01:36:55.470

Rosalind Norman: Jeff Vanderlou and throughout North St. Louis, okay our kids and I chose what?


01:36:55.530 --> 01:36:59.310

Rosalind Norman: Clyde C. Miller, and you know, Career Academy, which is right there, up the street from


01:37:00.780 --> 01:37:14.430

Rosalind Norman: Where they tore down the Vashon I went to and built the new 01:27:00career academy when a corner of Grand and Bell okay so i'm working with that school and I referred to that early on in our conversation, but my focus is what?


01:37:15.000 --> 01:37:25.050

Rosalind Norman: Providing students, not just there at Clyde C. Miller, it's much bigger than that now, free science, arts, and math education, along with emphasis on geospatial technology.


01:37:25.560 --> 01:37:40.740

Rosalind Norman: Why? Okay, here we go, we also tutor and we're helping K through 12, it's now pre K through 12 students in science, technology, engineering arts, and mathematics, which is you know, which is the umbrella for the acronym's theme okay.


01:37:42.330 --> 01:37:59.520

Rosalind Norman: let's go on and, of course, what i'm doing is what focusing on geospatial technology, which is in time with location based services and mapping, that is what the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency is all about OK? now.


01:38:00.750 --> 01:38:13.020

Rosalind Norman: Go on, and go on further down, here it is. Organizing, meaning, 01:28:00you know those people who are working with me as part of this, you know and again it's coming from the Community, because why? My-


01:38:14.130 --> 01:38:15.690

Rosalind Norman: How can I say it, oh.


01:38:17.190 --> 01:38:25.110

Rosalind Norman: My light bulb or Aha moment is when I was driving to the neighborhood and I kept saying wait a minute, they finally made an agreement,


01:38:25.950 --> 01:38:37.380

Rosalind Norman: To do something with this land that's been vacant all these years, we watched while, you know, while I was growing up different houses slowly being blighted and then all the land where Pruitt Igoe used to be.


01:38:38.100 --> 01:38:47.910

Rosalind Norman: Well I said you know so many other organizations were turned down, why? because of the amount of power that Civic Progress, made the plans the plans for


01:38:48.720 --> 01:38:58.740

Rosalind Norman: you know urban development, for what, destitute areas which included Jeff Vanderlou, Okay, so let me go on and show you this paragraph, it says,


01:38:59.310 --> 01:39:11.430

Rosalind Norman: You know high emphasis on what? Services and what? Low income 01:29:00communities by introducing them to technologies and skills needed within the geospatial industry. Now yes, NGA is


01:39:12.990 --> 01:39:17.550

Rosalind Norman: A catalyst because why? You're looking at close to what, $1.75, you might as well say,


01:39:17.790 --> 01:39:25.140

Rosalind Norman: 2 billion, you know project just for construction we're not about what's going on inside the building, once they get the new building up, but you talking about


01:39:25.380 --> 01:39:31.890

Rosalind Norman: You know, the national geospatial Intelligence Agency, They're part of the intelligence community so you know they're gonna spend some money on the latest


01:39:32.130 --> 01:39:42.210

Rosalind Norman: Technology, you know, equipment, you name it, to put inside. We just talked about the construction of it, okay so just even thinking about that, Okay, you need to have


01:39:42.780 --> 01:39:55.740

Rosalind Norman: Our people from that area, you know who have been left behind in our public school system that has not been adequately supported, or have the necessary resources to prepare them. Now you see where i'm going to go with this. Gateway GIS.


01:39:56.910 --> 01:40:02.520

Rosalind Norman: Okay, I want to explain and the very next paragraph, can you read it? You see what i'm saying this next paragraph?



01:40:04.350 --> 01:40:08.580

Jim Gass: It does.

Rosalind Norman: What did I say? See it?

Jim Gass: Yeah.

Rosalind Norman: Can you read it out loud?


01:40:08.910 --> 01:40:21.210

Jim Gass: yeah it's '"it just makes sense if we're talking about dealing with young people who have not had the resources, like others, to be able to be marketable in today's technology," said gateway guess organizer Rosalind Norman.'

Rosalind Norman: Right.


01:40:24.990 --> 01:40:25.320

Rosalind Norman: Right.


01:40:26.910 --> 01:40:28.050

Rosalind Norman: And then I go on and say what, a five year roll-out, right? And then I identify Clyde C. Miller Career Academy


01:40:31.230 --> 01:40:39.000

Rosalind Norman: would be the first to participate, okay, and then I go on to say, here. Read that short right there where it says education.


01:40:39.630 --> 01:40:47.520

Jim Gass: "Having education and preparing them so they can be ready for a career opportunity or an entrepreneurial opportunity is very important, Norman said."


01:40:49.350 --> 01:40:51.870

Rosalind Norman: Now, go to this last paragraph on this page. Look, read that.


01:40:54.270 --> 01:41:03.720

Jim Gass: Yet students will also go through extensive training in the classroom utilizing software used by professional agencies such as the National Geospatial 01:31:00Intelligence Agency.


01:41:06.000 --> 01:41:07.290

Rosalind Norman: And look at that, we have the software. And one of the initial champions and


01:41:08.340 --> 01:41:11.970

Rosalind Norman: collaborators for Gateway GIS, here. He's a volunteer, that's his name.


01:41:13.710 --> 01:41:15.600

Rosalind Norman: You can read that, I want you to- I want you to see, Gateway GIS, we're


01:41:16.920 --> 01:41:18.690

Rosalind Norman: working with a lot of stakeholders so go ahead read that paragraph.


01:41:19.770 --> 01:41:32.850

Jim Gass: Yeah, "One of the volunteers, Sekhar Prabhakar, of the US Geospatial Intelligence Foundation St Louis Area Working Group said careers in geospatial location based services will only become more important in the future."

Rosalind Norman: Ok, keep going.


01:41:35.100 --> 01:41:45.090

Jim Gass: Yeah '"There's going to be a lot of energy that has to be put into the sector, and I think it is the perfect time because location based services are gaining so much importance," Prabhakar said.'

Rosalind Norman: Ok and you can see what I said after that?


01:41:48.870 --> 01:42:02.790

Jim Gass: "Norman said she expects the program to expand to other schools over the next few years. The first seminar will take place Saturday at the National Blues Museum. Classes at Clyde see Miller career Academy High School will begin 01:32:00in the Fall."


01:42:02.910 --> 01:42:07.170

Rosalind Norman: And it did, we've been on point Okay, you know. I'm not trying to brag i'm just


01:42:07.170 --> 01:42:07.470

Rosalind Norman: Saying.


01:42:08.850 --> 01:42:09.030

Jim Gass: Nice.

Rosalind Norman: that's what I do.


01:42:10.740 --> 01:42:23.250

Rosalind Norman: Just so you can understand, we get paid to do this because why? I grew up in Jeff Vanderlou, I'm watching them build the new National Geospatial Intelligence Agency West Headquarters right there right okay i've watched people get, um.


01:42:24.330 --> 01:42:26.250

Rosalind Norman: Displaced, because of


01:42:26.760 --> 01:42:30.360

Rosalind Norman: The drive to blight a lot of those


01:42:31.680 --> 01:42:40.740

Rosalind Norman: houses or there were homes and other organizations, they had different kinds of small businesses in the area for years, you can say, in a way,


01:42:41.820 --> 01:42:50.040

Rosalind Norman: It was through that realization that you know what? I can't you know, sit on the sidelines and watch


01:42:51.180 --> 01:43:00.330

Rosalind Norman: To build it up, this major institution and you know, agency and they're talking about all this money they're bringing into this area, without


01:43:01.140 --> 01:43:09.390

Rosalind Norman: You know, trying to reach back and help young people and and 01:33:00people that still may live in a Community I grew up in and I live nearby now.


01:43:09.990 --> 01:43:24.510

Rosalind Norman: Help them to prepare, so they can be a part of and to be included because it's good for all these different agencies and companies to talk about you know that they're going to help you know, try to diversify and include people of color.


01:43:25.050 --> 01:43:31.350

Rosalind Norman: But is it really real you can say anything, you can make your mouth say anything right and I know this from experience.


01:43:32.580 --> 01:43:36.390

Rosalind Norman: The, what is it, the truth is in the pudding, God is in the detail?


01:43:37.200 --> 01:43:39.060

Rosalind Norman: I want to see action and if


01:43:39.150 --> 01:43:41.490

Rosalind Norman: i'm going to want to see action what's the saying,


01:43:42.900 --> 01:43:48.390

Rosalind Norman: If you want to see change be the change, you want to see, okay, that's where i'm coming from.


01:43:48.750 --> 01:44:04.200

Rosalind Norman: So i'm gonna get paid because this is a labor of love, but I have been so blessed because why? I've been able to bring in a lot of different collaborators and they understand, I'm not asking them to write checks, I'm 01:34:00asking for people to what?


01:44:05.220 --> 01:44:09.630

Rosalind Norman: Give back to this Community, okay, and we're talking about North St. Louis, okay,


01:44:09.660 --> 01:44:10.950

Jim Gass: Jeff Vanderlou, and all the other communities surrounding


01:44:10.950 --> 01:44:14.400

Rosalind Norman: where NGA west campus is being built, okay.


01:44:15.690 --> 01:44:20.280

Rosalind Norman: And I was gonna pull up just something quickly, see,


01:44:21.840 --> 01:44:22.710

Rosalind Norman: If I can find it...


01:44:24.150 --> 01:44:26.040

Rosalind Norman: My- my- you can still see my desktop right?


01:44:28.530 --> 01:44:28.950

Jim Gass: I can.

Rosalind Norman: Okay.


01:44:30.630 --> 01:44:31.290

Rosalind Norman: Let me see if I can find..


01:44:32.820 --> 01:44:46.080

Rosalind Norman: Okay, here we go Okay, so when we kicked off the kickoff was in May 2019, it took a whole year before that to plan for people go through training, train and use a new software, they were able to get an agreement with ESRI,


01:44:46.350 --> 01:44:57.420

Rosalind Norman: The company that provides the same software for NGA, with our kids, you know their, their teachers and different organizations and university representatives, including a couple representatives from UM St. Louis


01:44:58.050 --> 01:45:07.590

Rosalind Norman: was included and we're trying to train them with ESRI, the 01:35:00international company that develops the software right? The locator services. Okay so,


01:45:08.070 --> 01:45:15.510

Rosalind Norman: We finished our first year Okay, which would have been 2019 to 2020, right, we started as you see here May 2019.


01:45:16.050 --> 01:45:28.410

Rosalind Norman: Okay, you see, some of the language is still here okay now you see how we have to adjust the language, because why? What we're looking at is workforce development for under-resourced, underrepresented pre-school to 12th grade students okay?


01:45:29.040 --> 01:45:34.920

Rosalind Norman: Services provided free of charge and here it is, this is part of our for that first year work in collaboration with Ed- uh,


01:45:34.980 --> 01:45:36.870

Rosalind Norman: Education Community Members, you see this?


01:45:36.990 --> 01:45:43.410

Rosalind Norman: Very important, as a model it's based on giving back in time, talent and resources, can you please-getting you to interact a little bit-


01:45:45.330 --> 01:45:49.050

Rosalind Norman: read what you see on this page, "Model, Philosophy and Mission," this is very important.


01:45:50.910 --> 01:46:01.350

Jim Gass: Motto is "Act locally, think globally," philosophy is, quote, to develop a complete mind, study the science of art, study the art of science, learn how to see.



01:46:01.680 --> 01:46:12.660

Jim Gass: "Realize that everything connects to everything else" endquote Leonardo da Vinci, and for mission, it says bridging the digital, geographic, cultural, racial, and economic divide.


01:46:14.430 --> 01:46:14.850

Rosalind Norman: So.


01:46:15.360 --> 01:46:16.320

Rosalind Norman: In answer to your,


01:46:16.470 --> 01:46:25.620

Rosalind Norman: You know your question here, the activities we accomplished, just in the first year okay, literally within the Train the Trainer sessions with teachers to Community partners, I want, I want you to see


01:46:25.950 --> 01:46:33.870

Rosalind Norman: This is again about where i'm coming from, and I feel that i've been blessed because I did live in and I saw with my own eyes


01:46:34.200 --> 01:46:46.830

Rosalind Norman: how Macler operated, how Norman Seay operated, I got a chance to see him and work with Katherine Nelson, you know, she guided me as a major educator, you know she was also featured in the video, by the way,


01:46:47.730 --> 01:46:57.840

Rosalind Norman: That you saw. You know, I have some wonderful role models. I interfaced with and met Congressman William L., you know, L. Clay when he was even up on Capitol Hill, he wanted to basically invest in some of the


01:46:57.840 --> 01:46:59.190

Rosalind Norman: Projects i've worked on the Community.


01:46:59.250 --> 01:47:00.900

Rosalind Norman: So my



01:47:02.190 --> 01:47:17.970

Rosalind Norman: Regular work with Gateway GIS is about you know, truely engaging, involving, including members of a marginalized community, and particularly the communities in North St. Louis. I'm just being real that you, Okay, and so.


01:47:18.000 --> 01:47:20.790

Rosalind Norman: This is what this is about, this is what we accomplished, okay.


01:47:21.000 --> 01:47:29.010

Rosalind Norman: We have seminars all over the place, with different businesses and institutions and universities, you know you name it, we had internships and mentoring set in place.


01:47:29.310 --> 01:47:39.870

Rosalind Norman: We had 20 about high school seniors just the first year from Clyde that you know were able to receive paid internships, as well as- here it is, it breaks it down, 16 received academic


01:47:40.260 --> 01:47:48.060

Rosalind Norman: internships, as, you know, opportunities and there were two that were actually right off the bat in the fall or that same right after the kickoff last


01:47:48.840 --> 01:47:53.460

Rosalind Norman: few months after we kicked off, we had two who received paid internships right away.


01:47:53.880 --> 01:48:07.620

Rosalind Norman: And so out of the 20 okay that we started with at Clyde, and in the Spring we continued to get acceptance, for some of those seniors in two of 01:38:00you know, major programs like right there at University of Missouri in the information systems and technology Program.


01:48:08.340 --> 01:48:15.120

Rosalind Norman: Some of them wanted to move on to cyber security programs why? because we were exposing them to the fact that hey you need these skill sets.


01:48:15.480 --> 01:48:21.420

Rosalind Norman: And we were able to get that you know, the students really started with seniors and juniors at Clyde okay so that's another reason why.


01:48:22.110 --> 01:48:30.240

Rosalind Norman: We work very hard with them, and make sure, you know, to continue. We're now, you know, in COVID that we had to do some things virtually because we have to accelerate


01:48:30.600 --> 01:48:34.950

Rosalind Norman: some of our projects into the virtual environment, but you can see, even here,


01:48:35.850 --> 01:48:45.780

Rosalind Norman: We, you know we're, we're doing things, Okay, this is not about me just doing a photo op or a show-and-tell, these have to be, these are the hands-on projects, real world projects.


01:48:46.140 --> 01:48:51.570

Rosalind Norman: But we're starting that project, Clyde started on it, it was based on a project out of East LA, uh


01:48:52.200 --> 01:49:03.060

Rosalind Norman: That works with the ESRI software and it showed Mexican Americans in that high school out there and the research, they did in the area of social justice. I'm serious, be the kind of things we're doing.



01:49:03.600 --> 01:49:14.730

Rosalind Norman: We were fortunate to you know to collaborate the Pulitzers Arts Foundation and get information from the Monument Lab Initiative, as well as collect data from the Missouri Historical Society which, by the


01:49:15.090 --> 01:49:20.070

Rosalind Norman: way they're going to work with us on an internship for next year, because of COVID, we had to shift some things around.


01:49:20.670 --> 01:49:24.030

Rosalind Norman: The Archaeological Research Center oh man that report, that's over


01:49:24.450 --> 01:49:32.580

Rosalind Norman: A couple hundred pages, but all these people are giving us all this information, so we can do our own Gateway GIS story map project and guess what.


01:49:32.880 --> 01:49:38.850

Rosalind Norman: You started with, you know, started with Jeff Vanderlou, we'll do that and Macler and I'll do the history and actually produce


01:49:39.270 --> 01:49:55.350

Rosalind Norman: maps using the software, Okay, and the kids will look at what was there and what's missing now, so it becomes a little bit of social justice alone with economic, okay, equity issues and then we'll move from Jeff Vanderlou to other


01:49:56.430 --> 01:49:59.490

Rosalind Norman: nearby neighborhoods that surround where the building the new


01:49:59.490 --> 01:50:00.270

Rosalind Norman: NGA West


01:50:00.870 --> 01:50:07.830

Rosalind Norman: campus Okay, and then the other project we already working on, 01:40:00and in fact we have an unveiling set for this Monday, First Banner


01:50:08.640 --> 01:50:23.100

Rosalind Norman: And again started with Jeff Vanderlou. The Gateway GIS neighborhood banner project and that's being conducted, guess what, with the Boys and Girls Club in St. Louis and we started with the Teen Tech Center and , because you heard us mention that too.


01:50:23.280 --> 01:50:30.720

Rosalind Norman: You saw that and some information, so we already started that and guess what? That's a collaborative project with what? The Contemporary Art Museum of


01:50:30.990 --> 01:50:41.130

Rosalind Norman: St Louis which is right there Grand Center Arts District on specific Okay, and yes, there are what, just south of the Delmar Divide, so we are trying to bridge the Delmar Divide, that


01:50:41.490 --> 01:50:48.690

Rosalind Norman: was what, getting stakeholders from these other areas to what, volunteer and give their time talents and resources to what we're doing.


01:50:49.020 --> 01:51:06.120

Rosalind Norman: That project has now- in fact when we unveiled the first banner the kids worked on, during COVID, when it all was set back, the kids learned online how to use software from the Adobe suites like Illustrator and Photoshop 01:41:00to develop the first banner, which is going to depict


01:51:07.410 --> 01:51:21.540

Rosalind Norman: ah, Cool Papa Bell, okay on the first banner from Jeff Vanderlou, okay that's going to be unveiled on Monday Okay, then we'll continue to- we're branching out we're including the students from Vashon, as well as we including


01:51:22.050 --> 01:51:34.920

Rosalind Norman: Some more students from Clyde, in addition to the Boys and Girls Club, and we're talking about Cardinal Ritter, because you're looking at this area it's like a one mile area, you know radius, you know that will be surrounding NGA, you talking about the Gateway


01:51:36.120 --> 01:51:45.600

Rosalind Norman: Middle School, so i'm just talking about the fact that it's expanding, so we can get a total of eight banners because there's eight communities, that are predominantly


01:51:46.320 --> 01:51:54.960

Rosalind Norman: marginalized communities of people of color, Okay, particularly Black people, and we want to what? Visually give voice,


01:51:55.830 --> 01:52:04.410

Rosalind Norman: To the contributions of the real heroes from the past, present 01:42:00and future of those eight communities on those banners.


01:52:04.770 --> 01:52:13.200

Rosalind Norman: OK, so those that banner project is a major undertaking and you see it here, it says each of the eight neighborhoods surround the NGA West campus in North St. Louis so.


01:52:14.130 --> 01:52:22.020

Rosalind Norman: that's what we're going to install there so it's like a good opportunity for us to say, you not gonna forget us, Okay, because we're putting these banners up and


01:52:22.350 --> 01:52:34.410

Rosalind Norman: i'm working in and had been working with the City of St. Louis and the two Aldermen whose wards will be impacted by the work of the students and young people from the Communities,


01:52:35.070 --> 01:52:52.380

Rosalind Norman: that's involved, but also for installation okay and maintenance of those banners just so you know, will be, I'm gonna wait till all eight are done and then I want all eight to be installed, and then according to my understanding verbally, because you know with them with elected officials,


01:52:54.000 --> 01:53:04.590

Rosalind Norman: that they wanted, that the elected officials, they were talking about is Brandon Bosley for being you know Ward 3, which includes Jeff 01:43:00Vanderlou, and we're looking at.


01:53:05.250 --> 01:53:13.500

Rosalind Norman: Ward 19, which is Alderwoman Marlene Davis, and that includes where St. Louis University is, South Grand, also the Grand Center Arts District,


01:53:13.800 --> 01:53:27.900

Rosalind Norman: So, working with them, and particularly with Brandon because Brandon was the one to say, Roz, just, you know just installing all those banners, you're gonna line them up on Jefferson, write a post, from where the NGA West, you know


01:53:28.350 --> 01:53:42.480

Rosalind Norman: headquarters would be, okay, so we're gonna start at the corner of Class and go from Cass and Jefferson and go South to Martin Luther King Drive, okay and we'll have those banners installed on those light Poles that you know, going from


01:53:43.410 --> 01:53:48.480

Rosalind Norman: Cass and Jefferson, only down to Jefferson and Martin Luther King Drive, okay.


01:53:49.320 --> 01:53:55.290

Rosalind Norman: that's the goal and we're looking at it, it looks like now we're looking at probably not having it installed until next Spring but that's okay!


01:53:55.710 --> 01:54:04.590

Rosalind Norman: As long as the kids get the necessary skill set from learning how to do graphic design, at same time they learn how to research their communities,



01:54:04.920 --> 01:54:16.500

Rosalind Norman: And they'll learn how to visually capture you know who or what hero from the past, present you know the future represents each of those in human nature, does that make sense?


01:54:16.770 --> 01:54:17.160

Rosalind Norman: Okay?


01:54:18.330 --> 01:54:28.710

Rosalind Norman: that's the life, that's- that's- that's- that's what's being done right now. Resurrecting a Community, I had to modify that but working with, here it is, Dr. Lara Kelland,


01:54:28.830 --> 01:54:30.150

Rosalind Norman: which is how you got in touch with me,


01:54:30.720 --> 01:54:40.500

Jim Gass: Yep.

Rosalind Norman: We're you know it's a way of still getting it done without me having to come in, because I really have to propose a new course, but I proposed it as a new course,


01:54:40.860 --> 01:54:45.720

Rosalind Norman: For the honors college, but when I was talking to Dr Lara Kelland, when I was doing it,


01:54:46.050 --> 01:54:53.550

Rosalind Norman: You know, then you know she's still new to the area, but now I see that she's able to you know to carry over and do this, so I feel, pleased


01:54:53.850 --> 01:55:00.570

Rosalind Norman: Even though I didn't get the approval for the new course, but she's able to pick up some of that, just like what you working on, so that means


01:55:00.990 --> 01:55:12.510

Rosalind Norman: You see, the title there, Resurrecting the Community, I am 01:45:00about that, okay, and I'm looking at stories of creativity too, because within our Community I don't want us to continually be left


01:55:13.380 --> 01:55:27.870

Rosalind Norman: Behind or left out of what's happening in the history of St. Louis, you know, I'm just being real, okay just take our organization doing just our first year, look at our roll out, look at this. Impressive? Some of those things are


01:55:28.950 --> 01:55:42.750

Rosalind Norman: associated with Civic Progress, Okay, we have- Our kids have visited or had different people come in, to mentor or do presentations or offer internships, or you know, or help in different ways.


01:55:43.830 --> 01:55:55.380

Rosalind Norman: It's this this list, you know I mean we real, I mean we came from very interesting kinds of associations, so just take a closer look, we've had


01:55:56.280 --> 01:56:06.810

Rosalind Norman: The youngest Black satellite engineer for NASA on our our virtual presentation last summer, through our, uh, through our zoom, we do a monthly



01:56:07.620 --> 01:56:14.460

Rosalind Norman: type of virtual presentation and each month we feature different people, so that's what you see when you're looking at this lineup, you're looking at


01:56:14.730 --> 01:56:21.780

Rosalind Norman: All these organizations, participating in different capacities, okay, for what we're trying to begin with GIS, Okay, just so you can see this.


01:56:22.110 --> 01:56:38.310

Rosalind Norman: We even had someone from California group from the company Viasat, which is a satellite company, okay so i'm saying this, of course, it's a lot going on, Okay, and you can imagine, this has pretty much turned into a full-ime project for me, but that's Okay, because


01:56:39.990 --> 01:56:41.160

Rosalind Norman: It keeps


01:56:42.480 --> 01:56:57.330

Rosalind Norman: The historical and cultural, artistic and even scientific contributions of people from that area that's referred to as North St. Louis, if it keeps that out front about what's good,


01:56:57.960 --> 01:57:09.000

Rosalind Norman: We can counter all the negativity that we see in the media 01:47:00about all the killings and you know, and all the other stuff, in regards to crime that they tend to want to


01:57:09.330 --> 01:57:23.550

Rosalind Norman: push out there, the media, and draw on, and you know, create this whole culture of fear okay, so it's like in a way,Gateway GIS is countering this OK, because we'll make sure our kids and community is involved and to make sure that they understand they need


01:57:23.940 --> 01:57:28.890

Rosalind Norman: To have skills that are related to not just the spatial technology, that's


01:57:29.460 --> 01:57:43.410

Rosalind Norman: going to be the driving force for what's going to be moving NGA, but I want them to be prepared, not just working NGA, but for all the other companies and even entrepreneurial opportunities that are going to open up because why?


01:57:43.860 --> 01:57:53.010

Rosalind Norman: When you start dealing with geospatial technology you're dealing with locator services, anytime you pick up your phone, you are dealing with locator services, who deal with GPS.


01:57:53.340 --> 01:58:05.700

Rosalind Norman: GPS is what, Global Positioning System Global Positioning System, GPS is a part of geospatial technology okay it's locator services and 01:48:00it's all around us Okay, but


01:58:06.480 --> 01:58:15.420

Rosalind Norman: it's bigger than that. In order to see how that technology is able to work in aviation, or in, you know,


01:58:15.930 --> 01:58:23.760

Rosalind Norman: space travel, or with satellites, or even in our cars, especially the newer cars that rely on GPS.


01:58:24.240 --> 01:58:40.560

Rosalind Norman: And definitely, with the self driving cars, definitely depend on it. You have to understand, the role artificial intelligence, machine learning, internet and things, those are the emerging technologies that are to me very much a part of this as well for our kids.


01:58:40.980 --> 01:58:41.580

Rosalind Norman: Our kids


01:58:41.760 --> 01:58:51.720

Rosalind Norman: have been left behind and under-resourced for so long, they need a jumpstart now, because there's no way they can ever catch up, not with the limited resources that they have, or the lack therof.


01:58:52.050 --> 01:59:01.260

Rosalind Norman: Okay, so that's something that we definitely push for and nothing i'm working on right now, with these elected officials, oka,y and I'm, you know, carefully trying to


01:59:02.070 --> 01:59:09.660

Rosalind Norman: Get you to understand that, it's been an interesting kind of 01:49:00relationship, and I been dealing with this for a number of years, as you saw in 1999,


01:59:10.290 --> 01:59:28.020

Rosalind Norman: dealing with elected officials back then, and the stakeholders, but this last piece here is the GIS innovation corridor, okay, that's major Okay, I want to, and I did it, I already closed this, almost a year, working back and forth between, you know, City Hall.


01:59:29.040 --> 01:59:37.680

Rosalind Norman: You know, even with the different alderwomen, Davis, and all the aldermen, Bosler, now with the new alderman, James page for Ward 5,


01:59:38.610 --> 01:59:49.950

Rosalind Norman: trying to get them to work with Gateway GIS, and collaborate with Community partners, to name the GIS Innovation Corridor, in honor of Captain Wendell O. Pruitt.


01:59:50.370 --> 01:59:59.940

Rosalind Norman: A native St. Louisan, Sumner High School graduate, Tuskegee Airman, and an African American fighter pilot in World War Two, Okay, he grew up in the


02:00:00.750 --> 02:00:10.290

Rosalind Norman: Ville. Next door to JVL. Now you see what I'm doing? You know 01:50:00it's like saying, I want to make sure Gateway GIS,


02:00:10.890 --> 02:00:23.640

Rosalind Norman: We work at this as a community building initiative that supports, you know, our young people from preschool through 12th grade and also into college


02:00:24.120 --> 02:00:41.400

Rosalind Norman: and also to their careers and entrepreneurial pursuits, but my mind, keep in mind, that, in order to do this, we need to build a support that, within our community, which means educating our community, too, about what's going on and, at the same time, preserving


02:00:42.420 --> 02:00:52.710

Rosalind Norman: what's good about you know, our, you know our past, present and looking towards the future. So you have my, you know little spiel about GIS, do you see the connection?


02:00:53.610 --> 02:01:12.990

Rosalind Norman: With why, you know,the NGA is to me a catalyst, but at same time, having grown up in Jeff Vanderlou, and living nearby now, I just want to 01:51:00be sure that we're not forgotten, and that we're not, you know, just completely, you know,


02:01:14.340 --> 02:01:17.250

Rosalind Norman: written off, you know, I just don't want to see that happen. You know, did I answer your question?


02:01:20.370 --> 02:01:22.140

Jim Gass: Yes, yes, absolutely, that


02:01:23.190 --> 02:01:23.580

Jim Gass: Is a...


02:01:24.630 --> 02:01:32.070

Jim Gass: That is an undertaking right there, but that is extremely impressive, you know i've worked with, like, state and federal jobs programs before, trying to


02:01:32.580 --> 02:01:38.910

Jim Gass: bring jobs to rural areas that are under-resourced, and the way in which this is the opposite, in which it's,


02:01:39.390 --> 02:01:56.730

Jim Gass: it's coming from the ground up, it's coming from within the Community is just incredibly impressive to me so that yes, that answered my question about how well the kids in the Community will possibly be able to get employment with the NGA site and-


02:01:57.000 --> 02:01:57.720

Rosalind Norman: and it's not NGA.


02:01:58.410 --> 02:02:01.080

Jim Gass: yeah or, or, or elsewhere, or elsewhere.


02:02:01.590 --> 02:02:03.240

Rosalind Norman: Because, let me explain, the NGA is a



02:02:04.350 --> 02:02:05.190

Rosalind Norman: National...


02:02:07.500 --> 02:02:18.600

Rosalind Norman: intelligence agency, think about that. Their clearance process and be over a year long. How many of our kids you know, even if they were coming in as interns


02:02:19.200 --> 02:02:25.230

Rosalind Norman: Even if they come in as inerns, they have to do a background, a serious background check, okay, you gotta pass all that, number one.


02:02:25.980 --> 02:02:31.740

Rosalind Norman: And so, how many of our kids are going to be able to want to wait around,


02:02:32.220 --> 02:02:35.070

Rosalind Norman: To go for that background check, so we have to prepare them both ways.


02:02:35.310 --> 02:02:48.000

Rosalind Norman: You know, but those are interested in really going ford, and really want to work in NGA, that's fine, but I also want those who want to be able to go right away into working with some other ancilliary kinds of businesses,


02:02:48.780 --> 02:03:05.970

Rosalind Norman: and, or, you know work with, you know, contractors or subcontractors, if they have the skill sets, and cyber security, information technology or in artificial intelligence, understand machine learning, any 01:53:00manner of all things, drone technology, aviation, you see where I'm going with this?


02:03:06.030 --> 02:03:06.630

Jim Gass: I do.

Rosalind Norman: Engineering,


02:03:07.140 --> 02:03:19.320

Rosalind Norman: Then they can be use that core to go from that technical perspective to some of the jobs that will be more readily open to them, and if they still need to go to college, you know, they got


02:03:19.800 --> 02:03:28.530

Rosalind Norman: what, here in St. Louis, St. Louis University, Washington University, you know that they can also be prepared and move into because we do have a relationship,


02:03:28.860 --> 02:03:35.280

Rosalind Norman: You know, with most of those, you know, universities, through this project, so i'm just saying to you,


02:03:35.700 --> 02:03:46.470

Rosalind Norman: I see it, bigger that NGA, okay I just see NGA, don't get me wrong, you know it's- it's wonderful that they're going to build their West campus in North Saint-


02:03:46.860 --> 02:03:54.240

Rosalind Norman: North St Louis, the city of North St. Louis which is closer to where I grew up at, but at the same time i'm looking at


02:03:55.140 --> 02:04:03.600

Rosalind Norman: something bigger, big in the sense that there will be so many other opportunities related to that and I just want our kids to be prepared and 01:54:00be a part of that.


02:04:04.170 --> 02:04:14.130

Rosalind Norman: Okay, as well as their parents, and you know the Community, because obviously you can't do one without the other, you know you just I can't see doing one without the other, so it's a lot of work. I hope it's worth it anyway, that's all I can say.


02:04:19.980 --> 02:04:21.180

Jim Gass: That's fantastic, I think.


02:04:22.230 --> 02:04:27.330

Jim Gass: That- that really answers all my questions, this is, I only wish that we had spoken earlier in thi-


02:04:27.840 --> 02:04:39.870

Jim Gass: Earlier in this project, just because that could have really help determine the direction it's taken at but as it is, I think there's been this is very valuable and it fills in the gaps between the interviews that we have so far.


02:04:41.250 --> 02:04:46.290

Jim Gass: Is there anything else you'd like to add, or can I do you have any questions for me that I could answer?


02:04:49.830 --> 02:04:53.760

Rosalind Norman: Yes, so here's that report I was telling you about, actually, um, Dr Kelland should be able to give you a copy of her report, because this is one I sent to her, okay?


02:04:54.630 --> 02:04:57.600

Jim Gass: Okay, I made a note of that. And I'll send that email in just a little bit.


02:04:58.320 --> 02:05:02.130

Rosalind Norman: Yeah that way that'll give you some more information about Jeff Vanderlou,



02:05:03.150 --> 02:05:17.490

Rosalind Norman: The building of the new Vashon, and you're right, it comes from within the Community and even when I had that contract with the Danforth Foundation, get ready for this, I had people living in Jeff Vanderlou community who had been trained to go out and do the, um,


02:05:18.570 --> 02:05:23.820

Rosalind Norman: Community assessment, you know to to actually create this inventory, okay,


02:05:24.930 --> 02:05:30.480

Rosalind Norman: of their own community, just makes sense. Like you said from within, working from within, you know.


02:05:34.410 --> 02:05:37.350

Rosalind Norman: So for you, my question to you now is this:


02:05:39.690 --> 02:05:43.740

Rosalind Norman: So what have you learned from... i know I gave you a whole bunch of information what have you learned from


02:05:45.900 --> 02:05:48.090

Rosalind Norman: What I've shared with you, so far?


02:05:52.560 --> 02:05:59.850

Jim Gass: Well I guess, what this has really crystallized for me is the is the reasoning behind this cycle of


02:06:00.240 --> 02:06:09.570

Jim Gass: blighting, redevelopment, blighting again and redevelopment, that the 01:56:00city have go- that the various parts of the city have gone through over time, you know that that's something


02:06:09.870 --> 02:06:18.960

Jim Gass: That we've discussed in, like I said, Dr Kelland's class last semester, but this really puts it into perspective in terms of talking about the goals behind that,


02:06:20.340 --> 02:06:28.950

Jim Gass: I think- because i'd never thought to think of the Jeff Vanderlou area as a strategically- there's a strategic location


02:06:29.580 --> 02:06:44.430

Jim Gass: For people that want to want to develop the city and this really puts it in perspective in terms of what drives that cycle, so I think that's the most- that I think that's the biggest takeaway i've gotten from all this.


02:06:49.080 --> 02:06:49.590

Rosalind Norman: Can I share one last screen before we go?

Jim Gass: Certainly.


02:06:55.980 --> 02:06:56.280

Rosalind Norman: There is, um...


02:07:11.130 --> 02:07:13.590

Rosalind Norman: There's, there's Less than two minutes, i'll look for it,


02:07:14.790 --> 02:07:15.510

Rosalind Norman: Maybe...


02:07:17.670 --> 02:07:22.800

Rosalind Norman: This is the direction I'm going, because this, this is a person here, Andrew Dearing,


02:07:23.340 --> 02:07:38.100

Rosalind Norman: he's a special advisor but he's driving with geofutures initiative, which is part of "STL Made." This communication here, just today, back and forth, he said he will try to join us via zoom, on- on- on


02:07:39.300 --> 02:07:51.840

Rosalind Norman: On Monday, okay So here we go, ok here it is, this is his email from this morning, Okay, "thank you for sending the information" see, I wanna show you the slideshow Okay, these again, are major stakeholders,


02:07:52.290 --> 02:08:07.710

Rosalind Norman: See this is Andy, I can, I can call him Andy, but he's the lead Geofutures President, that is proud to be a part of STL Made, OK so again to the 01:57:00connections, context, Okay, so let me go down to, and find,


02:08:10.800 --> 02:08:11.550

Rosalind Norman: this piece, that he's referring to,


02:08:17.670 --> 02:08:18.090

Rosalind Norman: Here it is, right here. It was


02:08:19.110 --> 02:08:21.600

Rosalind Norman: forwarded to me, so bear with me, do you see it?


02:08:22.530 --> 02:08:24.810

Jim Gass: Yes, it is loading right- there it is.


02:08:25.080 --> 02:08:26.010

Rosalind Norman: Okay, here we go.


02:08:30.060 --> 02:08:31.020

Rosalind Norman: It's a slide presentation so...


02:08:36.450 --> 02:08:37.890

Rosalind Norman: there's nobody in this reading.

Jim Gass:

Rosalind Norman: That's the new design for the campus.


02:10:25.170 --> 02:10:26.520

Rosalind Norman: You see the drone in the background there? You see these numbers?

Jim Gass: I do, that's- that's a heck of an


02:10:27.540 --> 02:10:30.510

Jim Gass: Increase in just in just a few years.


02:10:32.640 --> 02:10:34.260

Rosalind Norman: Double digit growth was expected each year.


02:10:36.000 --> 02:10:42.510

Rosalind Norman: And that lady with the drone, she's a part of- she's one of our collaborators, too. She has her own drone company. And she's Black, by the way, Black female.

Rosalind Norman: We only have a couple more slides. It's time

Jim Gass: GeoFutures is committed to equitable and inclusive regional growth through...

Rosalind Norman: Here we go,


02:11:43.980 --> 02:11:51.180

Rosalind Norman: that's what I want- make sure you see this slide, focusing on Black tech and K to 12 tech education focusing on underrepresented communities.


02:11:51.420 --> 02:11:51.720

Rosalind Norman: Okay.


02:11:53.070 --> 02:11:53.610

Rosalind Norman: And that's where we fit in, in community-led development.


02:11:54.810 --> 02:11:59.760

Rosalind Norman: See, we fit in this, Gateway GIS fits right here, on this part, okay?


02:12:19.980 --> 02:12:20.910

Rosalind Norman: We're down to just two more slides.

Jim Gass: Mm.


02:12:28.440 --> 02:12:36.510

Rosalind Norman: I was trying to let it do it on its own, but it takes a while because I guess they wanted to be sure people knew, I can- I can accelerate it to-


02:12:59.700 --> 02:13:01.260

Rosalind Norman: Have you read this slide so I can go ahead and click this?


Jim Gass: I have.


02:13:03.840 --> 02:13:07.950

Rosalind Norman: Expediting, I know it was taking a while, but


02:13:13.140 --> 02:13:17.580

Jim Gass: The future of geospatial is StL Made, nice.

Rosalind Norman: Okay, that's it!


02:13:19.110 --> 02:13:19.650

Rosalind Norman: So,


02:13:21.240 --> 02:13:24.330

Rosalind Norman: Okay, so um let me stop sharing.


02:13:25.470 --> 02:13:27.570

Rosalind Norman: So getting back to me now.


02:13:29.430 --> 02:13:29.850



02:13:31.050 --> 02:13:40.830

Rosalind Norman: Okay, so does this help round out, you know, so you can see the connection with Gateway GIS, with Jeff Vanderlou,


02:13:42.300 --> 02:13:53.430

Rosalind Norman: And you know our relationship with, you know the building of the New Vashon, Harris Stowe, Mill Creek Valley, because really if you think about it it is already connected,


02:13:55.800 --> 02:14:07.680

Rosalind Norman: and your project, you know, so that's just my last question, so now does this- will this-how does this really help you to maybe, a different 01:59:00perspective, based upon your other interviews?


02:14:10.860 --> 02:14:25.320

Jim Gass: This provides the kind of macro view of the history of the neighborhood that will kind of provide the framework for I would say the micro history of the individual experiences of our interviewees, you know? Um,


02:14:26.400 --> 02:14:33.030

Jim Gass: Along with other historical material- mainly visual- that we're of course going to put into the documentary, but- but yes that's what.


02:14:33.750 --> 02:14:43.050

Jim Gass: that's what this conversation has really done as pulled it all together. I'm going to email my partner and asked her to what to please watch our interview, just as soon as she gets the chance.


02:14:43.560 --> 02:14:49.980

Jim Gass: we're on kind of a hiatus from editing today just be- for a couple different reasons, but this will


02:14:51.390 --> 02:15:07.350

Jim Gass: This, this has really tied it all together, I really want to thank you, Dr. Roz, because this, this is the kind of historical discussion that really reminds me why I'm in the field in the first place, because it goes from 02:00:00the the level of


02:15:08.370 --> 02:15:17.910

Jim Gass: Vashon High School, you know one school in a fairly large US city to the way that development has shaped the city to the,


02:15:18.450 --> 02:15:30.660

Jim Gass: To the regional context that that development is happening in, to- to you know, the US and its use of like the most advanced geospatial technology.


02:15:31.230 --> 02:15:48.000

Jim Gass: And as part of its national projects and that connection, that through-line there is really the sort of thing like as a historian, you know, I aspire to pull out in my work, that- that- this whole, this whole topic, this would make a great, you know, academic or,


02:15:49.350 --> 02:15:58.200

Jim Gass: A great speaking engagement, have you ever given talks, like on this topic, you know, in a university setting or elsewhere?


02:15:58.680 --> 02:16:01.560

Rosalind Norman: Well, I usually just, you know I mean,



02:16:03.570 --> 02:16:10.320

Rosalind Norman: , you know it's a lot of times it's just been in small groups, or when we were forming Gateway GIS, you know what I'm saying?


02:16:12.240 --> 02:16:18.780

Rosalind Norman: If I could have gotten the new course, this would have been a part of that new course at the Honors College. You know what i'm saying?


02:16:19.050 --> 02:16:29.400

Jim Gass: I do.

Rosalind Norman: But talking with Lara, you know I call her Lara, just like my students call me Dr. Roz, but, I'm serious,


02:16:30.330 --> 02:16:41.010

Rosalind Norman: Just, I appreciate you, you know mentioning it, I just don't know where it's going to go from here, I just pray and say Okay, you know, Gateway GIS, I'm serious, we getting ready to kick off,


02:16:41.610 --> 02:16:59.220

Rosalind Norman: um, not only the unveiling of the first banner of the eight, on Monday, then probably later on next week we'll be sending out a flyer for Gateway GIS, that is going to kick off, get ready for this, an all-girls official training program.


02:17:00.660 --> 02:17:06.090

Rosalind Norman: And it's for the 9th, 10th, and 11th graders and we're opening 02:02:00up so,


02:17:07.260 --> 02:17:10.620

Rosalind Norman: in fact, let me see, let me just share one last thing quickly,


02:17:14.820 --> 02:17:15.450

Jim Gass: Sure.


02:17:16.950 --> 02:17:24.570

Rosalind Norman: Here, here, here, here, if it's not here I can go here, and just to quickly show, we are right in the process of finishing up.


02:17:27.450 --> 02:17:30.930

Rosalind Norman: the, uh, flyer for it...


02:17:37.080 --> 02:17:40.530

Rosalind Norman: Here we go, here's the flyer.


02:17:41.550 --> 02:17:47.160

Rosalind Norman: I just want you to just, you know, see because we got to encourage our females to get more involved.


02:17:47.910 --> 02:17:48.330

Rosalind Norman: uh, in this.

Jim Gass: of course.


02:17:49.830 --> 02:17:50.160

Rosalind Norman: And,


02:17:51.450 --> 02:17:54.780

Rosalind Norman: it was designed by, you know, one of the people right here in North St. Louis.


02:17:56.100 --> 02:17:56.760

Rosalind Norman: What do you think?


02:17:57.450 --> 02:18:06.660

Jim Gass: I think it looks great, I think, the colors really pop, For one thing, 02:03:00I think it probably helps that the produce- can you scroll down a little bit lower?


02:18:08.160 --> 02:18:08.580

Rosalind Norman: Yeah!


02:18:10.680 --> 02:18:11.280

Jim Gass: Miss- yeah.


02:18:11.940 --> 02:18:28.080

Jim Gass: that's what I was gonna say, that mi- mirchandani, that that will hopefully be a pull for the students who would be interested in this, and this is a Career Academy High School and an East St Louis school district 189, nice, nice.


02:18:28.500 --> 02:18:29.130

Jim Gass: Nice.

Rosalind Norman: And,


02:18:30.360 --> 02:18:32.340

Rosalind Norman: see the beauty of this, get ready for this,


02:18:33.540 --> 02:18:33.960

Rosalind Norman: SHe wrote them a grant!


02:18:35.760 --> 02:18:38.100

Rosalind Norman: Because she is a member of AI4ALL, right?

Jim Gass: Yes.

Rosalind Norman: and she got the grant!


02:18:39.180 --> 02:18:43.500

Rosalind Norman: She got the first one, so we can give you know, so we can do this with the giveaway, okay?


02:18:44.910 --> 02:18:49.890

Rosalind Norman: And you see right here, it's free of charge. That's what Gateway GIS is all about, you saw our logo at the top right?


02:18:51.300 --> 02:18:53.160

Jim Gass: Yes.

Rosalind Norman: And she came up and tied in Operation Girl in AI, right?


02:18:54.480 --> 02:18:58.170

Rosalind Norman: Her father, now to show you how deep this is, you saw the logo right?


02:18:58.440 --> 02:19:11.010

Rosalind Norman: For the different ones? You see UM St. Louis, isn't that right? 02:04:00Because, why. It's her father, Dr Dinesh Mirchandani, with the department chair, for information systems and technology, right.


02:19:11.700 --> 02:19:13.980

Rosalind Norman: who brought it to Gateway GIS over a year ago.


02:19:14.580 --> 02:19:20.820

Rosalind Norman: And with COVID we had to sort of shift some things around, and you know, revisit the timeline,


02:19:21.060 --> 02:19:33.420

Rosalind Norman: And then recently, because I was trying to get the website redesigned, his daughter volunteered to work on, you know, because we got other young people and all kinds of volunteers working on a website over the last- now almost two years.


02:19:34.080 --> 02:19:50.610

Rosalind Norman: since we started. But she's been working on that recently and she said, you know what, why don't I just- that's how it happened, you know, literally her father, and you know, and you know, he said Roz, my daughter, I'm serious now you see how involved, UM St. Louis is on these different levels?


02:19:51.720 --> 02:19:56.130

Rosalind Norman: So it's a family affair with artificial intelligence. But look at this, I am-


02:19:56.340 --> 02:19:58.890

Rosalind Norman: this should go out this week, we just waiting for


02:19:58.980 --> 02:20:02.100

Rosalind Norman: Ria to get the link because she's working on registration form,



02:20:03.210 --> 02:20:12.780

Rosalind Norman: And you can see it's free, they talking about females, nine and grade nine to eleven, bi-state because why. We're working in partnership with East St Louis as well as with Clyde.


02:20:13.500 --> 02:20:21.360

Rosalind Norman: Now we will open it up, you know, so that you know other females students throughout, you know what i'm saying, this is what I mean by growing, okay,


02:20:21.660 --> 02:20:22.710

Rosalind Norman: And we are. That means we are fulfilling


02:20:23.610 --> 02:20:40.320

Rosalind Norman: Our mission, of what. Bridging the digital, the geographic, the cultural, racial, and economic divide. We're really, that's what i'm saying, I don't want to be talking about this, I want to be doing. I want to make that happen, so I just wanted to show that to you okay.


02:20:41.430 --> 02:20:51.990

Jim Gass: Thank you, thank you for sharing that, I can appreciate taking a regional approach like that, and including East St Louis. I grew up in St Clair county in uh, in O'fallon so it-


02:20:53.160 --> 02:20:55.830

Jim Gass: The- there'sm you know, the sense there that most of-


02:20:56.070 --> 02:21:07.140

Jim Gass: That Illinois's, you know, center of gravity is Chicago so that you know the counties down at the other end of the state, you know largely kind of 02:06:00fall outside of that, so you know we're very lucky to have like the Bi-state


02:21:07.530 --> 02:21:15.330

Jim Gass: Development Corporation and other groups that extend opportunities through the city, like throughout the metro area, including over to the Illinois side.


02:21:20.100 --> 02:21:23.340

Rosalind Norman: sounds like you are, you said your major was what, history?


02:21:24.000 --> 02:21:36.090

Jim Gass: Public history and museum studies, Dr Kelland's program. She- I was originally going to get the graduate certificate, that's what I was originally applying for, but Dr Kelland reached out and said i'd be a better fit for the MA Program.


02:21:36.390 --> 02:21:40.950

Jim Gass: and that they could hook me up with an internship and you know everything, everything else you need in Grad school.


02:21:41.430 --> 02:21:51.900

Jim Gass: And it's- i'm glad I took her up on that offer, because it's been- it's a lot- it's a lot better than what I was doing before, so I'm- I've been very lucky to be part of all this.



02:21:55.980 --> 02:21:57.930

Rosalind Norman: And you said you grew up in St. Clair so did you go to a public school, private or what?


02:21:58.020 --> 02:22:05.400

Rosalind Norman: I'm just curious.

Jim Gass: O'fallon Township High School before- before that it was a private school, St Clare Catholic elementary school.


02:22:06.660 --> 02:22:09.090

Jim Gass: But yeah O'fallon's more so, in I


02:22:10.230 --> 02:22:18.120

Jim Gass: guess, the north central part of St Clair county? yeah that's about right, North central part of St Clair county.


02:22:20.550 --> 02:22:29.910

Jim Gass: Um, formerly, a pretty small farming town, you know, then it kind of boomed because Scott air force bases right there, that's where both my parents grew up and where I was born and raised.


02:22:32.790 --> 02:22:33.690

Rosalind Norman: Okay, okay, okay, so that means you're not really that far from SIUE either?


02:22:36.960 --> 02:22:47.040

Jim Gass: Not really no, in fact my, my roommate went there for a while. I graduated from Illinois State which is about two and a half hours, well about three hours north of St Louis.


02:22:48.000 --> 02:22:57.900

Jim Gass: That- that- that's where I first developed that sense that Chicago is more so the gravitational center of Illinois just because I was the only kid from the St Louis metro area.


02:22:58.350 --> 02:23:13.950

Jim Gass: there, and everybody else was from somewhere in Chicagoland and so 02:08:00that was kind of- that was you know kind of eye-opening, but then I did a couple years with Americorps and then I just moved back here in 2019 but with plans to start grad school.


02:23:16.650 --> 02:23:21.480

Rosalind Norman: Okay, Well, thank you for considering me, and including me in your,


02:23:22.770 --> 02:23:41.580

Rosalind Norman: Your work and I love your suggestion, if you can you know, think of our schedules, are you and Dr Kelland and anybody else and you all will figure out a way for me to do anymore, at UM St. Louis because I had taught there, I taught there just the semester, let me see, when Black Panther came out.


02:23:41.940 --> 02:23:43.410

Rosalind Norman: I did a whole course for the


02:23:43.410 --> 02:23:47.610

Rosalind Norman: honors College on Black Panther okay, in fact...


02:23:48.960 --> 02:23:55.740

Rosalind Norman: It was wonderful, it was a beautiful experience, and honors college courses, honors college represents a little bit everybody right?


02:23:57.330 --> 02:24:00.870

Rosalind Norman: But i'm thinking just so you know,



02:24:03.090 --> 02:24:03.330

Rosalind Norman: um, yeah it was a, I'm trying to think what did I call that course? I'm trying to remember what did I call it, my goodness,


02:24:09.390 --> 02:24:10.200

Rosalind Norman: Because it seems like it's been forever, since Black Panther, they getting ready for what,


02:24:13.140 --> 02:24:13.710

Rosalind Norman: Black Panther 2 now


02:24:16.320 --> 02:24:26.160

Jim Gass: It doesn't feel like that long ago that it came out, but that was- that was before i'd even left Illinois, like I remember seeing it my last weekend in town, so that- so that would have been early 2018.


02:24:27.600 --> 02:24:28.110

Rosalind Norman: Yeah, yeah


02:24:29.490 --> 02:24:33.780

Jim Gass: Three years ago, wow.

Rosalind Norman: So i'm just saying, I would love to, just let me know. But you can tell, just


02:24:37.980 --> 02:24:48.870

Rosalind Norman: doing what i've been doing with young people and marginalized communities for more than 40 years and so i'm retired, and you know-you know i'm just, i'm just blessed, I


02:24:49.290 --> 02:25:00.360

Rosalind Norman: manage what I have, you know, if I could do like you're saying, you know, I would love to just make sure that we're not forgotten, you know, I just, I just want to see you know.


02:25:01.620 --> 02:25:06.180

Rosalind Norman: People of color in our marginalized communities, you know, not 02:10:00forgotten, you know I just,


02:25:06.210 --> 02:25:09.420

Rosalind Norman: I want to see us included because there's a lot of untapped talent


02:25:09.750 --> 02:25:12.990

Rosalind Norman: That we're not even dealing with when we're pushed aside.


02:25:16.560 --> 02:25:20.580

Rosalind Norman: Okay, well.

Jim Gass: Well, it sounds like they're very lucky to have you so, thank you, thank you again for being part of this.


02:25:21.660 --> 02:25:23.550

Rosalind Norman: Thank you, you have a good one okay?


02:25:24.510 --> 02:25:26.070

Jim Gass: You as well. I'll be in touch.


02:25:27.180 --> 02:25:27.660

Rosalind Norman: OK, thanks, bye-bye.